Wikidata:Requests for comment/Q21205906 and Q15781
An editor has requested the community to provide input on "Q21205906 and Q15781" via the Requests for comment (RFC) process. This is the discussion page regarding the issue.
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- consensus to keep two items --Pasleim (talk) 18:43, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please, User:Milicevic01 and I need comments.
He keeps on merging Yugo (Q21205906) and Zastava Yugo (Q15781) saying just «same car!!!!!!» or «just because they changed the name and added more plastic on it dosen't make them different» while I keep on explaining that the items are about two different object with different data (#2 of WD:Notability) and - most important - different wikilinks (#1 of WD:Notability): on it.wiki both it:Zastava Koral and it:Zastava Yugo exist and merging the items results in a wikipage without its item on Wikidata. However he keeps on merging the items while I rollback his action. Now User:Csigabi protected the elements for a week. I'd like to solve this problem with comments from other Wikidata users.
What do you think about this question? Thank you very much --★ → Airon 90 18:31, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- For the manufacturer are two different car, so we need two different item. --ValterVB (talk) 19:28, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Same engine, same mechanics, same tiers, same look (at least without added plastic), same body shell, i can provide pictures if you want --Milicevic01 (talk) 22:06, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Pictures: 1990 Yugo Koral and 2006 Zastava Koral --Milicevic01 (talk) 22:16, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Italian community of Wikipedia created separated pages for Zastava Koral and Yugo. You added the merge template when (on both elements while we put the merge template only in the page to be merged into another one) you realized that you couldn't just merge the elements on Wikidata because of existence of different wikilinks. An admin rollbacked your edit and you did too. It happened the same on Zastava Yugo page where the admin wrote "non ha importanza" (it's doesn't matter, nije bitno). So as on it.wiki there are two different pages, there should be two different items on Wikidata.
- it seems that some pages talk about Zastava Yugo, some about Koral. If you merge the items how do you call it? Zastava Koral or Zastava Yugo? Which data do you insert on it (images and production date are different)?
- I don't read anything about «Same engine, same mechanics, same tiers, same look (at least without added plastic), same body shell». In Wikipedia we don't trust sentences with just a look to the pictures. Sources: could you provide a valid source that proves what you are saying?
- Moreover I quote ValterVB: for Zastava, Yugo and Koral are two different cars, so we need two different items.
- --★ → Airon 90 08:18, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And point of all this big talk of yours is? --Milicevic01 (talk) 12:38, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you understand what I write? It seems that you don't understand anything I write and you keep on merging items without any other argumentation that "same car".
- I want to keep them separated as they are two different models of car, with different data and different wikilink: as you noticed, Italian Wikipedia has separated pages for Zastava Yugo and Zastava Koral, some Wikipedias has a page for Zastava Yugo and some other for Zastava Koral. Here is why I try to explain why Wikidata should have two different items. (Serbian translation provided by Google Translate) --★ → Airon 90 10:39, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- And I assume that you are blind? Since you don't see or don't want to see images. --Milicevic01 (talk) 10:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't care about similarity of the pictures because I - but I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one here - just care about data and wikilinks. Do you understand what User:ValterVB and I wrote you here? Do you understand the importance of having an item on Wikidata for every page on Wikipedia?
- If you don't understand I'll try to explain again why you're wrong in merging elements. Otherwise on Wednesday the items will be unlocked and if you merge again the items I'll ask admins to take some decisions as nothing has been decided by now.
- Moreover, I'm not good in examples, but I try: would you merge FNM 240 (Q3836045) and FNM 251 to 262 (Q977590), too? The images are similar...
- --★ → Airon 90 14:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Similar ha? You should definitely see an eye doctor, by the way threats dont work on me --Milicevic01 (talk) 16:22, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- And I assume that you are blind? Since you don't see or don't want to see images. --Milicevic01 (talk) 10:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
BTW I never insulted you and I never threatened you. Unless you explain why my argumentations are wrong, I stop writing here and I wait for other comments. Please, stop being childish and start being collaborative. You are a sysop on Serbian Wikipedia: you should know - I hope - what consensus and dialogue mean. Thank you --★ → Airon 90 16:38, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I also wait for useful comments, and i did provide arguments (images and your data about size of the car) but you dont wont to see that --Milicevic01 (talk) 17:16, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- This, this and this aren't accettable, do not continue with this attitude. To back to the topic: have you source that say that Yugo and Koral are synonyms of the same car? We have the manufacturer that say that are 2 different car, in fact they have different name (compare 2 images isn't a source). --ValterVB (talk) 17:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Noted, far the source is concerned, look at 4 image of first car (Yugo Koral) and you will see text YUGO Koral 55 --Milicevic01 (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- If you look at the fifth you will notice "YUGO" while there is not in the other car. Moreover, if you look under Polovno vozilo ("used vehicle") you'll read "Zastava Yugo 55" for the first car and "Zastava Koral" for the second one. Let's not look at pictures and talk about text sources. Are there sources about the cars? --★ → Airon 90 08:28, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Noted, far the source is concerned, look at 4 image of first car (Yugo Koral) and you will see text YUGO Koral 55 --Milicevic01 (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I requested another block of the items as nothing has been decided and user:Milicevic01 uncollaboratively keeps on merging the items. --★ → Airon 90 00:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- So if I understand correctly they are different car models, but specifications are almost (if not) the same, and thus they looks very similar. But as they still are different models, they both should have their own item on Wikidata. On the Polish Wikipedia, there is pl:Zastava Yugo Koral that should also have it's own item, and some Wikipedia pages are generally about "Yugo". --Stryn (talk) 09:42, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- If I understand it correctly the Koral and Yugo are both individual models of a car. Koral is also a range of cars that covers both the Koral model and the Yugo model. ·addshore· talk to me! 10:57, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Yugo was product in period 1981-2000 and Koral in period 2000-2008. Probably the first series of Koral (2000-2002) was very similar, but not identical to the Yugo (some restyling and some changes of mechanics), in second series was changed the engine and the syle. (it.wikipedia source). --ValterVB (talk) 11:09, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- A proposal could be:
- creation of a separated item for Polish page "Zastava Yugo Koral" with common data for Yugo and Koral (i.e. country (P17), part of the series (P179), manufacturer (P176) and instance of (P31). After having a reliable source also properties width (P2049), height (P2048), mass (P2067), total produced (P1092) can be added)
- Yugo (Q21205906) and Zastava Yugo (Q15781) will be subclass of (P279) "Zastava Yugo Koral" (I admit: I don't understand very well subclass of (P279) so maybe it is not correct to use it here)
- In Yugo (Q21205906) and Zastava Yugo (Q15781) there will be properties follows (P155), followed by (P156), service entry (P729), service retirement (P730) and image (P18)
- I don't know what to do with Commons category (P373) and Freebase ID (P646).
- What do you think? --★ → Airon 90 11:22, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- A proposal could be:
- Yugo was product in period 1981-2000 and Koral in period 2000-2008. Probably the first series of Koral (2000-2002) was very similar, but not identical to the Yugo (some restyling and some changes of mechanics), in second series was changed the engine and the syle. (it.wikipedia source). --ValterVB (talk) 11:09, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- If I understand it correctly the Koral and Yugo are both individual models of a car. Koral is also a range of cars that covers both the Koral model and the Yugo model. ·addshore· talk to me! 10:57, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Almost 3 weeks passed by and nobody answered to my proposal. I wait for another week and then I'll apply my proposal. I mainly wait for an answer from Milicevic01. --★ → Airon 90 18:26, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @Milicevic01: ·addshore· talk to me! 09:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @Addshore: On 26th January I wrote on his user talk page on Serbian Wikipedia but he is not interested anymore in arguing. It's time to unlock the items --★ → Airon 90 16:41, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- PS: I already created item Zastava Yugo Koral (Q22329333) --★ → Airon 90 16:48, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I think we should not decide based on personal interpretation of photos as Milicevic01 proposes. The current source in Italian and English on the matter seem rather poor and I think that "Koral" and "Yugo" (or "Jugo") are brands which were used differently in different countries, so the overlap is non-obvious. Some sources definitely say of one of the two things which they wouldn't say of the other, so a merge seems hard without strong sources indicating that all the other sources actually intended to talk of the same thing. Nemo 15:53, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]