Property talk:P2512

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has spin-off
works that are spin-offs of this item

Description	series' spin-offs
Represents	spin-off (Q1186399)
Data type	Item
Domain	creative work (Q17537576)
Example	All in the Family (Q1048856) → Maude (Q1247562) Buffy the Vampire Slayer (Q183513) → Angel (Q212156) NCIS (Q4525) → NCIS: Los Angeles (Q6084) NCIS: New Orleans (Q16802335) The Vampire Diaries (Q28537) → The Originals (Q4307100) Legacies (Q53375767) Chicago Fire (Q1187416) → Chicago P.D. (Q13218686) Chicago Med (Q19848860) Chicago Justice (Q24068396) Final Fantasy (Q99416119) → Final Fantasy Tactics (Q5449391) Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles (Q2584287) Metal Gear Solid (Q66734074) → Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (Q930345) Persona 5 (Q15225985) → Persona 5 Strikers (Q74109258) Persona 5: Dancing in Starlight (Q41801533) Persona 5 Tactica (Q119295153) Persona 5: The Phantom X (Q117750097)
Tracking: same	no label (Q42533362)
See also	plot expanded in (P5940), derivative work (P4969)
Lists	Items with the most statements of this property Count of items by number of statements (chart) Items with the most statements Items with the fewest statements Count of items by number of sitelinks (chart) Items with the most sitelinks Items with the most sitelinks, but no link to one Wikipedia (sample: Welsh Wikipedia, cywiki) Items with the fewest sitelinks Most linked wikis Items with the most identifier properties By value of property Most statements Fewest statements Most sitelinks Most linked wikis Total of sitelinks on items Most identifiers Fewest identifiers Items with no other statements Most recently created items Items with novalue claims Items with unknown value claims Usage history (total) Usage history (main statement) Chart by item creation date Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P2512 Database reports/Constraint violations/P2512 Map Random list
Proposal discussion	Proposal discussion
Current uses	Total 708 Main statement 691 97.6% of uses Qualifier 17 2.4% of uses
Search for values

[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]

Scope is as main value (Q54828448): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)

List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P2512#Scope, hourly updated report, SPARQL

Type “creative work (Q17537576)”: item must contain property “instance of (P31)” with classes “creative work (Q17537576)” or their subclasses (defined using subclass of (P279)). (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P2512#Type Q17537576, SPARQL

Inverse property of “based on (P144)”:
if [item A] has this property (has spin-off (P2512)) linked to [item B],
then [item B] should also have property “based on (P144)” linked to [item A]. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P2512#inverse, SPARQL

Allowed entity types are Wikibase item (Q29934200): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P2512#Entity types

Value type “work (Q386724)”: This property should use items as value that contain property “instance of (P31), subclass of (P279)”. On these, the value for instance of (P31), subclass of (P279) should be an item that uses subclass of (P279) with value work (Q386724) (or a subclass thereof). (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P2512#Value type Q386724, SPARQL

Start date of the series should be before the start date of the series used as value
Sample: NCIS starts before NCIS:LA. Check date or statement (Help)
Violations query: SELECT ?item ?itemLabel ?value ?valueLabel { ?item wdt:P2512 ?value ; wdt:P580 ?s1 . ?value wdt:P580 ?s2 . FILTER( ?s1 > ?s2 ) SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "en" } } LIMIT 100
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P2512#Start date of the series should be before the start date of the series used as value

This property is being used by: hy:Կաղապար:Տեղեկաքարտ Մուլտսերիալ, hy:Կաղապար:Տեղեկաքարտ Հեռուստասերիալ Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)

only for series of works

I added a type constraint since – telling from the proposal – this should only be used for series.--Shisma (talk) 21:15, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Confusion

Hello everyone. I just added Young Sheldon as an example of use. I found a reverse use. The confusion may be that on WP we find the Original work -> "serie spin-off" -> the Serie, see The Big Bang Theory -> Spin-off series = Young Sheldon. I rename the labels "series spin-off from" (en) and "série dérivée issu de" (fr). While there is based on (P144). Regards. --Eihel (talk) 18:39, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

It's defined the other way round : old series > P2512 > new series. Please see the property proposal discussion. Don't edit 2 languages to change it to the contrary. Avoid babelizing. --- Jura 18:47, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

@Jura1: I was looking at pages of WD where I have been and I am trying to correct the mistakes. On What We Do in the Shadows (Q17036671), there was an error about has spin-off (P2512) (see link above).

In the current language:

Q17036671 dates from 2014 (old) and Q55985712 dates from 2018 (new). So, Q55985712 (new) is derived from Q17036671 (old). By putting P2512 in Q55985712 (2018), it works, but not in Q17036671 (2014). Just as if I put P2512 in Young Sheldon and not in The Big Bang Theory, it works.

In your example, old series > P2512 > new series:

P2512 is in Young Sheldon (Q30014613) to say that Young Sheldon is the has spin-off (P2512) of The Big Bang Theory (Q8539). It should not be understood that TBBT has a P2512 that is YS, but that YS is a P2512 that is TBBT.

Just looking at property proposal, it is defined that P2512 is not the opposite of based on (P144), but a derivative of this Property. With based on (P144), it's clearer. We write the same thing, but the property is misused, hence my "Babel" changes. For your last sentence, I find it "mezzo", set theory (Q12482). --Eihel (talk) 20:24, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

• It happens that people use properties incorrectly. Such uses eventually get fixed. I don't think the two samples were that great (one from the 1970s). I added NCIS: maybe here it's clear already from the series title. To check if series are incorrectly added, I added a complex constraint, comparing start time (P580) of both. Maybe the property description could be improved as well. If you want to add an inverse statement, you could use based on (P144) --- Jura 20:41, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

uh. @Jura1: The important thing is who is right, is not it? It's for the sake of WD and everything works fine. We are not going to do R3R and I think you have not read what I wrote. I think we need to talk directly. What is your native language ? Are you on an irc, I join you? --Eihel (talk) 21:00, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

The question is how the property was defined. To determine this, the property description, samples and proposal discussion can help. Is there anything that suggests one should use "YS P2552 TBBT"?--- Jura 21:05, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

@Jura1: #wikidata^connect --Eihel (talk) 21:11, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Confusion 2

Introduction

Let's start on a healthy foundation. I do not want to do R3R against Jura1. Every time I write above, more additions are made by Jura1 and the discussion is sterile. Another way is that other people are speaking here to stop the carnage and that I am no longer the target of revert. Some of those who participated in the development of this property are listed below. The limited number of people concerned allows not to do a RfC.

• @AmaryllisGardener: You have proposed this Property, here.
• @Pigsonthewing: You asked if this property is the opposite of based on (P144).
• @LydiaPintscher: You answered no, because that it's "an extension to P144", but for the series.
• @GZWDer: You have created this Property for this purpose, in this direction.
• @Shisma: You specified that this is a property that only applies to series, by a constraint. Because it is a property that has "the same function" as P144, but specially made for series, following the proposal.
• @MisterSynergy: you added the property proposal debate in the documentation (here).
• @Pasleim: you added the example All in the Family (Q1048856) and did the housework in the doc.
• @Valentina.Anitnelav: you added the example Buffy the Vampire Slayer (Q183513).
• @Renamerr: one last participant.

Affirmations

• Before all these modifications, P2512 was wrong on What We Do in the Shadows (Q17036671) (2014) and correct on Wellington Paranormal (Q55985712) (2018). So we had to put has spin-off (P2512) on Wellington Paranormal (Q55985712) (most recent), QED.
• If based on (P144) is placed in the most recent Item, it is the same for has spin-off (P2512), QED.
• The item, to which this Property is added, is newer than its value. Example: We put P2512 in Angel with the value BtVS, because Angel (Q212156) is newer than Buffy the Vampire Slayer (Q183513). In WP, "Angel is an American television series, a spin-off from the television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer."
• If you ask that this property is not the opposite of P144, we can make "a parallel" with this Property:
  • Young Sheldon is based on The Big Bang Theory
  • so, Young Sheldon is the spin-off from The Big Bang Theory
• Some users, not familiar with P2512, used P144 for series: Heroes Reborn (Q18957824) is based on (P144) from Heroes (Q83401). If P2512 is not the opposite of P144, P2512 must be in Heroes Reborn (Q18957824).
• If I place P2512 on Heroes Reborn (Q18957824) with the value Heroes (Q83401), I have an error because there is no P144 in Heroes (Q83401) !? Yet on the same page, we have P144 and P2512.
• On WD, a Property is to qualify an Item. Just like Johann Sebastian Bach (Q1339) is human (Q5) (because of instance of (P31)). He is composer (Q36834) (because of occupation (P106)). In the documentation above, Maude (Q1247562) is the P2512 from All in the Family (Q1048856) (...is the P2512 from Till Death Us Do Part (Q202577)).
  

On this diff, Jura1 has incorporated the inverse constraint which is P144. It was not the original idea.

Debate

Give your succint opinion in the new debate below:

1. Either the property proposal is no longer relevant (why prop proposals) and Jura1 is right. P2512 must be placed in the oldest Item and P144 is its inverse property (new constraint).
2. Either the property proposal is topical. P144 is still not the inverse property of P2512 and is placed in the most recent Item ("an extension of P144").

Attention do not trust the current property. The property has been modified and no longer corresponds to the proposal. --Eihel (talk) 09:39, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

• ...

Comments

From my reading of Wikidata:Property_proposal/Archive/44#P2512, it seems clear that the property should point from NCIS to NCIS LA, not the contrary. --- Jura 11:17, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

• It is quite clear from the property before either of you edited it that it is intended for statements on the original, parent series (though this could also be a one-off show, or a movie), whose value is the child spin-off series. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:40, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
• I agree with the two statements above. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

plot expanded in (P5940) now available

As you all doubtless already know, a property that includes this property and the inverse may now be used (with qualifier to specify). Arlo Barnes (talk) 05:41, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Property constraint

I have changed the property constraint because it didn't seem to do what the proposal intended. Objects now don't have to be a series of creative works (Q7725310) but a television series (Q5398426) -- Discostu (talk) 10:46, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

For clarity, this was reverted in Special:Diff/1174747751. Jean-Fred (talk) 12:52, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Why is this property restricted to series?

Things that aren't serialized can have spin-offs. Some movies are spin-offs of other movies, as are some books and video games. It feels really weird and arbitrary to limit a property to this one type of creative work. OmegaFallon (talk) 18:33, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

For a concrete example, currently this property is being used by Q21039924 (Undertale) for its spin-off Q58045522 (Deltarune). OmegaFallon (talk) 18:35, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi OmegaFallon. I have no strong opinion about using has spin-off (P2512) for other types of work than series. @Shisma, Arlo Barnes: What do you think?

If they disagree: Would plot expanded in (P5940) work for you? - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 19:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Btw: is there a reason why this is not a subproperty of plot expanded in (P5940)? - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 19:23, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@Valentina.Anitnelav: I think that in the domain of video games, spin-offs are overlapping with plot expansion, but can also be about a gameplay change. For example, Link's Crossbow Training (Q1351639) is considered a Zelda spin-off because it’s not an action-adventure game ; or Castlevania Judgment (Q2561727) a Castlevania spin-off because it’s a fighting game. It would be a stretch to say that Tekken Card Challenge (Q1153454) expands much on the plot of the Tekken series. :)

To follow the definitions of Relationships among video games: Existing standards and new definitions (Q50180192), I think plot expanded in (P5940) would map to both prequel / sequel and sidestory ; and P2512 would map to spin-off.

Jean-Fred (talk) 21:28, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with OmegaFallon. Shisma (talk) 20:42, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree as well. It’s clear that the property was conceived with TV-shows in mind, but browsing through en:List_of_media_spin-offs shows there’s more to it. Jean-Fred (talk) 21:28, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I adjusted the labels/descriptions in English and German as no one opposed the suggestion to use it for other media spin-offs and there are two supports. Please adjust labels/descriptions in your languages, if necessary. Jean-Fred, could you add a computer game example, please? I wanted to add your Castlevania example, but I could not figure out if to use Castlevania (Q2515184) (series) or Castlevania (Q1043375) (game). Thanks! - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 18:06, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you!

I added 3 VG examples, covering all combinations I could find: video games series → video games series ; video game series → video game ; video game → video game(s) Jean-Fred (talk) 20:04, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

(That ship has probably sailed, but since I’m here, I wanted to say that I find the direction of this property weird. I think “Spin-off of” would have been more natural/elegant, in my opinion) Jean-Fred (talk) 20:04, 5 July 2023 (UTC)