Property talk:P4258

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Gallica ID
Gallica ID of a creative work (e.g., book scan)

Associated item	Gallica (Q1492436)
Applicable "stated in" value	Gallica (Q1492436)
Data type	External identifier
Template parameter	|id= in the French Template:Gallica (Q14396624), for instance
Domain	version, edition or translation (Q3331189) et ses sous-classes (note: this should be moved to the property statements)
Allowed values	According to this template: String According to statements in the property: [^ ]+ When possible, data should only be stored as statements
Example	Le Journal des femmes (Q124611160) → cb32799714h/date ZX Spectrum (Q23882) → btv1b55013033m Les stratagèmes ; Aqueducs de la ville de Rome (Q78161854) → bpt6k23659d
Source	https://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/search/advancedSearch/
External links	Use in sister projects: [ar] • [de] • [en] • [es] • [fr] • [he] • [it] • [ja] • [ko] • [nl] • [pl] • [pt] • [ru] • [sv] • [vi] • [zh] • [commons] • [species] • [wd] • [en.wikt] • [fr.wikt].
Formatter URL	https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/$1
Related to country	France (Q142) (See 638 others)
See also	Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268), Google Books ID (P675), Internet Archive ID (P724), BnF archives and manuscripts ID (P12207)
Lists	Items with the most statements of this property Count of items by number of statements (chart) Items with the most statements Items with the fewest statements Count of items by number of sitelinks (chart) Items with the most sitelinks Items with the most sitelinks, but no link to one Wikipedia (sample: Welsh Wikipedia, cywiki) Items with the fewest sitelinks Most linked wikis Items with the most identifier properties Items with no other external identifier Items with no other statements Most recently created items Items with novalue claims Items with unknown value claims Usage history (total) Usage history (main statement) Chart by item creation date Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P4258 Database reports/Constraint violations/P4258 Map Random list
Proposal discussion	Proposal discussion
Current uses	Total 33,024 Main statement 32,628 98.8% of uses Qualifier 64 0.2% of uses Reference 332 1% of uses
Search for values

[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]

Item “Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268)”: Items with this property should also have “Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268)”. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4258#Item P268, search, SPARQL

Format “[^ ]+”: value must be formatted using this pattern (PCRE syntax). (Help)

List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4258#Format, hourly updated report, SPARQL

Allowed entity types are Wikibase item (Q29934200): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4258#Entity types

Scope is as main value (Q54828448), as reference (Q54828450): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4258#Scope, SPARQL

Items using this property should have P268 or P12207
Query looks if both are absent. (Help)
Violations query: SELECT DISTINCT * WHERE { ?item wdt:P4258 [] . MINUS { ?item wdt:P268 [] } MINUS { ?item wdt:P12207 [] } }
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P4258#Items using this property should have P268 or P12207

Constraints

Hello,

I just added the constraint that all items with this property should also have Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268)... normally, all items in Gallica link to a Bnf catalog record.

If this causes problems, please contact me :) --Hsarrazin (talk) 16:14, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

And I have added new property BnF archives and manuscripts ID (P12207) as well. - PKM (talk) 22:06, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

@PKM: I'm sorry but why did you do that? Most items with P4258 should also have a P268, but most of them can't have a P12207. It will only result in a long list of unsolvable constraint violations. (also ping @Uzume: who recently changed this constraint) Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 10:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: I only fixed the constraints because they were broken. See Help:Property constraints portal/Item for details but it seems item-requires-statement constraint (Q21503247) constraints can only take a single property (P2306) qualifier so I just split the broken constraint into two parallel constraints. However, I too question the rationale for them. I would not think that all digital items (e.g, scans of documents like manuscripts, book editions or images collections like photographs, etc.) would be only for manuscripts and/or all have individual catalog entries at any library (much less BNF). —Uzume (talk) 11:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: If you want to remove either or both of the constraints added by Hsarrazin and PKM (and repaired by me), I would have no qualms with that. —Uzume (talk) 11:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Uzume: as I said, the second constraint is correct, only the second is questioning me (AFAIK it's totally wrong), hence my message before deleting it. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 12:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: Then I encourage you to be bold and delete it. —Uzume (talk) 12:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Uzume: absolutely not, otherwise I would have done it directly instead of leaving this message here (I have 4+ million edits on Wikimedia projects, I have a pretty good idea when to be bold or not maybe PKM did had a good reason that I don't see or maybe I'm just wrong, I'd like to at least give her the courtesy of some time and a chance to explain). Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 12:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The Bnf ID and Archives and Manuscripts ID should be one or the other is required, not both. Can that be done? - PKM (talk) 21:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@PKM: ah right! that make sense but not sure how it can be done, probably only with a complex constraint. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 16:50, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I will ask for help in Telegram, PKM (talk) 01:42, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@PKM: done, I see that Nikki had the same solution on Telegram. I guess we can remove the regular constraint(s) now, should it both of them or only P12207 (sine it's the rarest, most documents are not manuscripts). @Acélan: je viens de voir ton message sur la page d'Uzume, je vois que l'on est sur la même longueur d'onde . Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 09:01, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: I think they both should go as otherwise there will always be constraint violation in the rarer situation when a Gallica ID (P4258) claim has a BnF archives and manuscripts ID (P12207) and not a Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268). Since we won't have a regular constraint I suppose most editors will not get such warnings but the database report will still list the complex constraint violations and interested editors can monitor and attend to such. —Uzume (talk) 09:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@PKM: That is exactly what Acélan said on my talk page (but in French so it took me a while to interpret and respond).

@VIGNERON: I see you built a complex constraint to replace the current ones so I suppose they should both be removed now (as neither is really applicable). —Uzume (talk) 09:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Uzume, @VIGNERON, @PKM I think it's better to go back to the previous constraint, i.e. keep Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268) as mandatory and remove the BnF archives and manuscripts ID (P12207) condition, which is extremely marginal compared to the first. Acélan (talk) 09:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Acélan: VIGNERON seems to agree with you and I won't fight whatever consensus is arrived at but I would rather they were both removed as otherwise there will be spurious constraint violation warnings when there is actually a BnF archives and manuscripts ID (P12207) associated with a Gallica ID (P4258). Perhaps, if it can be guaranteed to be true we can write different constraints for BnF archives and manuscripts ID (P12207) and Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268) such that each forbids the other. —Uzume (talk) 09:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Uzume, @VIGNERON I have no idea what the technical problems are, I'm just an occasional WD contributor. All I know is that if this constraint hadn't existed, I would never have had the idea of adding the BNF identifier (Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268)) to the Gallica identifier Gallica ID (P4258). And I can't be the only one in this situation. --Acélan (talk) 09:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Uzume: my logic is as follows:

• Almost 100 % of entries in Gallica have also an entry in the BnF catalog, so the constraint for P4258 and P268 make sense (even if it's not really exactly 100%)
• Unlike regular constraints, complex constraints don't show up on items, so it's not a perfect replacement
• the cataloguing of manuscripts is complicated and not always fully consistent (there is probably some cases with both BnF archives and manuscripts ID (P12207) and Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268)), but it's very very very rare (the BnF catalog has around 20 million entries while there is around 100 000 entries for manuscripts, so the ratio is 0,5 %!).

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 10:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: Okay, I see you removed the item-requires-statement constraint (Q21503247) property constraint (P2302) pertaining to BnF archives and manuscripts ID (P12207) while leaving the other pertaining to Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268). To that end I marked the remaining constraint pertaining to Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268) with the additional qualifier of constraint status (P2316) and value of suggestion constraint (Q62026391) since there may be some valid situations where it should not be required. It will however still notify most editors (like Acélan) that they should consider adding Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268). The complex constraint can catch the rest. —Uzume (talk) 10:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Uzume Thank you, that's an excellent solution. Acélan (talk) 10:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I have no objection. - PKM (talk) 21:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I suppose ZX Spectrum (Q23882) is one of the few rare examples that has a Gallica ID (P4258) and BnF archives and manuscripts ID (P12207) (but not a Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268); you can see the constraint violation warning there). I notice its Gallica ID (P4258) begins with "btv1b" vs. "bpt6k". I wonder if something can be inferred from this (perhaps to improve the complex constraint). —Uzume (talk) 10:48, 6 April 2024 (UTC)