Property talk:P481

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Palissy ID
identifier in the Palissy database of moveable objects of French cultural heritage
Descriptionidentifier in the Palissy database of moveable objects of French cultural heritage
RepresentsPalissy database (Q2886424), Object as Historical Monument (Q61058374), Objets non protégés de l'I.G.P.C. (Q86830939)
Applicable "stated in" valuePalissy database (Q2886424)
Data typeExternal identifier
Template parameterfr:Template:Base Palissy, Template:Palissy (Q12646507), Commons:Template:Palissy
Domain
According to statements in the property:
artificial physical object (Q8205328) or group (Q16887380)
When possible, data should only be stored as statements
Allowed values[PEI][M]\d[0-9AB]\d{6}
ExampleMadonna of the Rose Garden (Q648068)PM68000050
no label (Q29221997)PM93000695
Sourcehttp://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/palissy_fr?ACTION=NOUVEAU
Formatter URLhttps://www.pop.culture.gouv.fr/notice/palissy/$1
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/palissy_fr?ACTION=CHERCHER&FIELD_1=REF&VALUE_1=$1
Tracking: usageCategory:Pages using Wikidata property P481 (Q61035498)
Related to country  France (Q142) (See 389 others)
See alsoMérimée ID (P380)
Lists
Proposal discussionProposal discussion
Current uses
Total157,533
Main statement157,387>99.9% of uses
Qualifier2<0.1% of uses
Reference144<0.1% of uses
Search for values
[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]
 
Format “[PEI][M]\d[0-9AB]\d\d\d\d\d\d: value must be formatted using this pattern (PCRE syntax). (Help)
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#Format, hourly updated report, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 
Distinct values: this property likely contains a value that is different from all other items. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Known exceptions: no label (Q28319846)
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#Unique value, SPARQL (every item), SPARQL (by value), SPARQL (new)
 
Item “country (P17): France (Q142): Items with this property should also have “country (P17): France (Q142)”. (Help)
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#Item P17, hourly updated report, search, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 
Type “artificial physical object (Q8205328), group (Q16887380): element must contain property “instance of (P31)” with classes “artificial physical object (Q8205328), group (Q16887380)” or their subclasses (defined using subclass of (P279)). (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#type Q8205328, Q16887380, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 
Conflicts with “population (P1082): this property must not be used with the listed properties and values. (Help)
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#Conflicts with P1082, hourly updated report, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 
Conflicts with “intangible cultural heritage status (P3259): this property must not be used with the listed properties and values. (Help)
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#Conflicts with P3259, hourly updated report, search, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 
Item “location (P276): Items with this property should also have “location (P276)”. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#Item P276, search, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 
Item “inception (P571): Items with this property should also have “inception (P571)”. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#Item P571, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 
Item “made from material (P186): Items with this property should also have “made from material (P186)”. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#Item P186, search, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 
Item “creator (P170): Items with this property should also have “creator (P170)”. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#Item P170, search, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 
Allowed entity types are Wikibase item (Q29934200): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#allowed entity types, SPARQL (new)
 
Item “genre (P136): Items with this property should also have “genre (P136)”. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#Item P136, search, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 
Scope is as main value (Q54828448), as reference (Q54828450): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P481#scope, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
 

Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)


Current contraints and moveable objectsEdit

@Pyb, Jean-Frédéric, Pymouss, VIGNERON: Hi, I was just looking at this property because it's used by quite a few paintings. From the description of this property and the usage statistics I understand that this property is for movable objects (like paintings). For movable objects we generally prefer to use location (P276) instead of located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) and to use country of origin (P495) instead of country (P17). location (P276) because it's intended for movable objects and country of origin (P495) because country (P17) tends to be ambiguous (is it where it came from? Where it is now? etc.). Maybe we should look into updating items that use this property? I expanded Madonna and Child (Q29122669) a bit as an example. Would like to hear from you what you think. Multichill (talk) 11:24, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Multichill: thanks for the feedback.
I'm pinging @Gzen92: who did most of the import 3 years ago. It's complicated but indeed we need to take a deeper look now.
I totally agree that we should add location (P276) but I'm not sure if it should be in addition or to replace located in the administrative territorial entity (P131).
As object, they are obviously moveable but as *protected* object there is a lot of conditions that restrict any move. In particular, if a protected object is inside a protected building and they related, the move is almost impossible. Also, they can't be sold ; or only inside France with the agreement of the government (through the regional prefect) or if the protection is removed (which almost never happens). Same for any modification, you have to warn the State 2 month before any modification. And there is a lot of other conditions like this. So country (P17) is exactly the sense described on the property "sovereign state of this item" and de facto this is also the country where it is now. So I would say it's important to keep country (P17) but indeed we should also add country of origin (P495).
And thanks for the improvments on Madonna and Child (Q29122669), it's obviously better like that. It also gave me an idea of this query :
SELECT * WHERE {
  ?q wdt:P481 ?id ; rdfs:label ?label .
  FILTER (lang(?label) = "fr"). 
  FILTER regex (?label, "(V|v)ierge").
  MINUS { ?q wdt:P180 [] }
}
Try it!
It could maybe be used to either automatically or manually add depicts (P180) = Virgin Mary (Q345).
Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 11:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
For now I would just add location (P276) and country of origin (P495). Doesn't really hurt to have both. Would be great to have some sort of semi-automated approach to link up these paintings with the churches the paintings are in.
So I'm working a bit on getting genre (P136) added to as many paintings as possible, see Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Top genres. I have a specific focus on hristian religious art because we have so much of it. For these I'm adding:
I do suggestions based on different approaches. If you could mass add this kind of data to these paintings, that would be nice.
For example I think we can apply these edits to https://w.wiki/ReK . https://petscan.wmflabs.org/ can do that. Multichill (talk) 13:25, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@VIGNERON: at User:Multichill/Palissy location I'm playing around a bit with church suggestions. Multichill (talk) 14:00, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Working on religious artEdit

Based on User:VIGNERON's suggestion, I've been working on the religious art part of this. https://petscan.wmflabs.org/ is acting up for me now so I'll resume later when it's up and running again. I used two approaches.

Get the post popular labels for paintings at https://w.wiki/SW3 . Use these labels as input for second query https://w.wiki/SW5 to get all the items (not only paintings) with a certain label , in this case variants of "Descente de Croix" for which we have Descent from the Cross (Q13365963) . Use the petscan to add the relevant statements: example edit. I'm slowly working my way down the list.

For the labels that are used less than 5 times I use https://w.wiki/SW6 . I just modify the query to include one or more letters (of course the L is a long list in French). Load it in Petscan (make sure your interface language is set to French and the Wikipedia set to French Wikipedia). Ticket the boxes for the ones that look like religious art and add the relevant statements. This will make them pop up on reports like this one. Multichill (talk) 14:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: (and others): I could use some help. My goal is to add genre (P136) to as many paintings as possible (top genres) and to add main subject (P921) to religious art (Q2864737) (top religious art main subjects). Currently 11.000 of the paintings have genre and 4800 have main subject.
About 7000 paintings currently still miss genre. Can you help adding the missing genre? Something like https://petscan.wmflabs.org/ can probably make this easier (if I manage to force it to French again). Strategy should probably be cherry picking .
The most popular labels without a know main subject will show up on this list and when an initial link is made this list gets populated. Could use a hand over there too. Multichill (talk) 08:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

ExhaustivitéEdit

Bonjour, je pensais que tous les éléments de Palissy avaient été créés sur Wikidata, mais je viens de tomber sur plusieurs que nous n'avions pas (ex: PM43001171 ou PM43002758). Comme il ne s'agit pas d'objets classés récemment, sont-ce des exceptions ou y a-t-il des pans entiers de la base à créer ? Ayack (talk) 10:43, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

To add to that. Besides missing entries we also seem to have quite incomplete entries like Q29120024.
@Gzen92, Peter17: you both seem to have worked on this. What is the status? Would love to get this complete, but I don't like doing double work. Multichill (talk) 16:47, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello, this has already been discussed but i don't recall @VIGNERON: ? Gzen92 [discuter] 11:26, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
For completion of the set, yes not everything has been imported. The dabase has 280 000 "fiches" but Palissy ID (P481) is only used 157 396 times. The source for the import was data.gouv.fr (allegedly complete for the MH...) and not Palissy itself (which itself is not complete anyway /o\).
For completion of each items, I think more or less everything easily importable has been imported (which is maybe not enough in general but the best that could be done I guess... now we need little human hand to do the "fine" work). That said, there is something strange on Q29120024 as the heritage designation (P1435), it's probably just a rare bug : only 3847 items with Palissy ID (P481) but not heritage designation (P1435) (apparently, again it's coming from the data.gouv.fr file...). @Gzen92: could you take a look and try to fix this?
The relevant discussion related to the import is Wikidata talk:WikiProject France/Monuments historiques#Palissy.
Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 12:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
I downloaded the file and had a look. The id's mentioned earlier (PM43001171 & PM43002758) are not in the file so that explains why these are missing. For Q29120024 I have:
{ "STAT": "propri\u00e9t\u00e9 de la commune", 
"DPT": "64", 
"MATR": "", 
"SCLE": "17e si\u00e8cle", 
"REF": "PM64000936  ", 
"INSEE": "64006", 
"DENO": "", 
"DPRO": "", 
"AUTR": "", 
"EDIF": "Chapelle Saint-Saturnin de Jouers", 
"COM": "Accous", 
"REG": "Aquitaine", 
"TICO": "Peinture : Sainte Famille"
}

Let's see if I get the fields right:

  • STAT : Status, who is the owner
  • DPT : Department code for which we have INSEE department code (P2586)
  • MATR : Material used
  • SCLE : Time period
  • REF : The code we have in Palissy ID (P481)
  • DENO : What kind of object it is?
  • DPRO : Since when it was classified and what kind of classification
  • AUTR : Creator
  • EDIF : The location
  • COM : community
  • REG : region
  • TICO : Title/description

Based on this we can probabl add instance of painting to all the entries that have TICO starting with "Peinture ". Would it be better to also mention the church (or chapel) in the description? So in this case in English "painting in Chapelle Saint-Saturnin de Jouers, Accous, Aquitaine, France (PM64000936)" or something in that direction?

I just noticed https://www.pop.culture.gouv.fr/notice/palissy/PM64000936 has embedded json near the end which is much richer than the data dump. Have you considered using that? Multichill (talk) 15:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

json and csv : same content. In the files : 150 172 objects, 3 166 without DPRO ({heritage designation (P1435)). For PM64000936, however the status is indicated in the file. We know that this ministry is not very rigorous on this subject... Gzen92 [discuter] 04:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
I wasn't referring to the json dump, I was referring to the json embedded on https://www.pop.culture.gouv.fr/notice/palissy/PM64000936 . Have a look. Multichill (talk) 20:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Yes indeed, there is also the info on the chapel containing the object. But I didn't have the info on data.gouv.fr. This ministry is not very rigorous... Gzen92 [discuter] 06:31, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
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