Talk:Q168225

Country Property

Hello @מחסל האגדות, דגש חזק: and @أمين: about edit war that happened. I restored last stable version (15 April 2020‎ version), and protected the page for 1 month on administrator level (hope we'll not need block option). So, this war about: country = Palestinian National Authority (start time = 1948), but: inception (P571) of Palestinian National Authority (Q42620) on 1994. Country property should changed to:

• Ottoman Empire (1517 - 1917)
• Mandatory Palestine (1920 - 1948)
• Jordan (1948 - 1988) -- Legal status of the city remained part of the borders of the Jordan until the decision to disengage in 1988, when State of Palestine was declared.
• State of Palestine (1988 - 1994)
• Israel (1967 - 1994)
• Palestinian National Authority (1994 - November 2012) -- Palestinian National Authority established in 1994 following the Gaza–Jericho Agreement.
• State of Palestine (November 2012 - now) -- per United Nations General Assembly resolution 67/19

Also, please understand that Hebron situation is too complicated, as Hebron was split into two sectors: H1 is controlled by the Palestinian Authority and H2 – which includes the Old City of Hebron – remained under the military control of Israel. And this complexity continues to this day. --Alaa :)..! 07:31, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Also, ping @باسم, Huldra, Freedom's Falcon, Fjmustak: --Alaa :)..! 07:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@علاء: i agree with your solution--باسم (talk) 07:50, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Everything is true. But there is one problem: the United Nations has decided to give the Palestinian state Hebron, but the Palestinian state is only present on paper. Currently there is a Palestinian Authority, and the Palestinian state is not yet established (Who is the Prime Minister? Who is the MP? What regime exists? ).

Best regards, thanks, דגש חזק - Talk 18:45, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@דגש חזק: "Palestinian state is only present on paper" not that true, after UN deceleration a lot of countries start using "State of Palestine" as official name instead of "Palestinian Authority", and all embassies changed it's name to include "State of Palestine", also Official ministries. Fro example see this and official website of Ministry Of Foreign Affairs & Expatriates Palestine you'll found "State of Palestine".

inception (P571) of State of Palestine (Q219060) on 15 November 1988. Prime Minister of the State of Palestine is Mohammad Shtayyeh. There's no MP, but PLC (stopped since few years until next Palestinian general election). Finally, it's Unitary semi-presidential republic. Please read enwiki article. Best --Alaa :)..! 07:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@علاء: I agree with what you mentioned as well. This is not a matter of "De Facto". -Freedom's Falcon (talk) 19:37, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

So  edited after more than 7 days of this discussion--Alaa :)..! 10:12, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I just saw this discussion now. Presently we have "Israel 1967 -1994", should that not be "Israeli-occupied territories"? Also, the whole of Hebron is still counted as "Israeli-occupied territories" by the international community (for good reason: the Israeli army go wherever they want.) So to say that it is in "State of Palestine" or "Palestinian National Authority" is only part of the story. (My experience is that complicated areas, like Hebron, cannot easily be properly described here on Wikidata, unfortunately), Huldra (talk) 20:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello Huldra, thanks for your comment. Yes, my mine point about "that complicated areas, like Hebron, cannot easily be properly described here on Wikidata", but as you see from the item history that few users try to put part of the story, so at least we'd try to put as much as we can from this story, not only support this one part. Any suggestions are welcomed --Alaa :)..! 08:19, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand why you insist putting false information. Currently there is no Palestine state (aka country), only the PA (Palestine Authorithies), which is the currect term, and which is uses officially. Why the hell you even locked from editing, and thus spreading this false information? HiyoriX (talk) 18:20, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

HiyoriX, first of all assume good faith and be civil please. Currently there's State of Palestine (Q219060), and they are using "State of Palestine" in all formal government papers. Why protected? see the history and you can see the edit war --Alaa :)..! 08:19, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

According to the enwiki article on Hebron:

• The city remained under full Israeli control (zone C) in the Oslo Accords (1994/5)
• In 1997 it was split to a smaller Israeli-controlled zone (H1) and a larger Palestinian controlled zone (H2).

Therefore Israel never did not cede its de-facto control of the city until 1997 (not 1994), and maintains de-facto control on part of the city. Furthermore, any Palestinian control of the city before 1997 was claimed but with no de-facto control (as was the Jordanian claim in the years 1967-1988). But I'm not sure what's the bar in Wikidata for noting such claims. Tzafrir (talk) 05:05, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Alaa, please fix the dates of Israeli control to '1967-present' according to the above. Alternatively, if there is a single cut-off year, it is 1997 in Hebron. I also agree with what Huldra wrote about Israeli-occupied territories". Israel never annexed those areas. Tzafrir (talk) 07:44, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello Tzafrir, yes I agree with you in A/B/C and H1/H2 zones, but in real I don't see that we can clarify all of this on WD item. The main point that I want users to know that "Hebron situation is too complicated" and Wikidata can't help in clarify all points, thereby it'd be neutral, does not support one opinion! About '1967-present' Done. --Alaa :)..! 08:19, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Huldra and Tzafrir, hope the #country part being better now? --Alaa :)..! 08:19, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

User:علاء, How can an entity that was established in mid-November 1988, become a member of an organization in 1976? It makes no sense. Assuming there exists a state (as a legal entity) called "State of Palestine", an assumption that's quite doubtful I'm afraid, it should be noted that Palestine Liberation Organization was a member of Arab League from 9-September-1976 until 15-November-1988, and State of Palestine has been a member of Arab League merely since its inception. AlmaTsuy (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@AlmaTsuy: Is this comment related to above discussion? And per en:Arab League: "The Palestinian Liberation Organization was founded during this meeting on 2 June 1964. Palestine was shortly admitted in to the Arab League, represented by the PLO. Today, State of Palestine is a full member of the Arab League." Thanks --Alaa :)..! 15:39, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@علاء:, yes, my comment is quite related to the above discussion, which started with you protecting the entry. This entity, State of Palestine, had not existed in 1976. Therefore, it is absurd to claim a non-existing entity was a member of an organization. The entity State of Palestine inherited the membership of a different entity, Palestine Liberation Organization. AlmaTsuy (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@AlmaTsuy: yes the protection due to edit war, it'll end after 2 days, and I hope this edit war will stop, so no need for more protection. So please can you explain your point in relation to #country property, i.e. what is your suggestion? as I can't see any mention for 1976 on country property! --Alaa :)..! 15:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@علاء:, start time of State of Palestine's membership of Arab League should be at least after State of Palestine's inception, that is no sooner than 15-November-1988. see member of (P463) of State of Palestine (Q219060). AlmaTsuy (talk) 16:09, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@AlmaTsuy: Okay, State of Palestine (Q219060) protected on autoconfirmed level, and per this you already on "Autoconfirmed users", so you can edit Q219060#P463. Thanks --Alaa :)..! 16:14, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

For a start, Hebron still says "Israel", starting 1967: that indicates it was a part of Israel; ie. all Hebronites had equal rights, with say an Israeli citizen in Tel Aviv. Nothing could be further from the reality. Therefor: "Israel" should be changed into "Israeli-occupied territories". Huldra (talk) 21:20, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Huldra  edited --Alaa :)..! 21:35, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! Is it also possible to order the countries after when they started their "rule"; starting with "Ottoman Empire", then "Mandatory Palestine", then "Jordan", then "Israeli-occupied territories", then "State of Palestine", then "Palestinian National Authority", then "State of Palestine"? --Huldra (talk) 21:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Huldra I didn't make this previously as I'd remove all items then re-added again, and per this page that displayed order should not have any meaning. But yes, to make arranged better, so  Done --Alaa :)..! 22:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! One thing is wikidata rules, another thing is readability for most users. I this we can agree that the present ordering is much better! --Huldra (talk) 22:06, 25 June 2020 (UTC)