Talk:Q20113710

Hello! The property "membership" was not correct, since "39" is the number of MPs, not the "number of people who are part of an organization at a particular time" (which is what the property membership indicates). I'm a user on it.wiki, if necessary I'll log in.--2.234.174.166 23:46, 4 January 2017 (UTC) (I'm --Caarl 95 (talk) 01:26, 6 January 2017 (UTC))

I don't understand your argument. The MPs are the members of the group, i.e. the organisation at a particular time (time stated in the qualifier). --ElTres (talk) 19:51, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi Caarl 95 nice to see you around again. Personally, I think the explanation ElTres is more correct in this case. The entity is the group, not some sort of "superparty" (the sum of real membership of every national party), if that is what you mean. So membership is the right property for the "number of MPs". What else could it be? The number of people working for them? That would sound weird. Also, these group are usually so "fluid" that a sum of that type is difficult to make. It is often quite challenging to track the total number of MPs over the months, what would it be if you start to track all possible splits at the local level and also, what if you end up making a sum of data of different years? Party membership can collapse in a very fast and unpredicted way. This scenario is so unpractical that the final number would be probably senseless. At least for an "objective" archive. For a single party it is worth the effort but for this "bureaucratic" aggregates not really--Alexmar983 (talk) 07:42, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Well, I understand "number of people who are part of an organization at a particular time" only as the number of people enrolled to the party. I think that if you want to indicate the number of MPs you should create another property... @Alexmar983: I made the edit since it:Template:Partito politico on it.wiki translates (correctly) the property as "iscritti" (the number of people that are enrolled to the party).--Caarl 95 (talk) 23:52, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

FYI, no ping Caarl 95. But the point is that this is not a party but a parlamentary group. Imagine a group of language minorities MPs in a chamber of the Italian parliament. Ok they are not like the group "misto", they have something in common at the ideological level, like in the EP groups, but there is still more "bureaucracy" then "soul", it is still a practical thing. They also have no real "legal consistency" outside that building. Would you really add their membership to say how many people they represent or gather on the territory? Does this really have sense? Of course if there is a more specific property it is good to use it IMHO, you need someone who is really expert on this type of items.

When you are the first to massively connect a specific language version to wikidata, as itwiki did with its templates and infoboxes during the last year, many details have to be refined. it's much more simple to join massively wikidata later, when other users have fixed many of them. Open a thread (or link this one) to a village pump in this case. If we don't have a village pump about political item here on wikidata (that is we have no specific project), I guess it could be time to create it. Ask User:Epìdosis who did the same about Ancient Grece. Unfortunately, when you are the first version who use massively wikidata it's up to you, users of a specific language community, to fix these aspects and set up a good working environment.--Alexmar983 (talk) 11:10, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Alex, I understand the words about coordination and so on but here we face a factual mistake due to the incorrect use of the property. I think that it's better not to put the property instead of using it incorrectly. I can't understand why it should be kept here...--Caarl 95 (talk) 20:47, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Caarl 95 I saw also your message in talk but I answer you here now (we can discuss further later, no problem!). IMHO the property membership with its definition it is used "correctly" here. It follows its definition, which is the overall number of people being part of the entity and the entity is in this case the group, it is not a merge of party at a transnational level.

I said myself in any case that we can (and probably should) remove the property and replaced with a more specific one if it exists, and you can propose yourself to create it. That's why I suspect we would benefit for some times of a dedicated project. For example Q47729, a real party, uses the property to estimate "real" people on the territory. And as you can see it has no property for membership in the parliament, I don't see the information "number of MPs" there. In theory now you could create a new item concerning the parliamentary group and use membership there, but we all understand that having the property there is much more useful. So real party have both (number of MPs and membership) and "fluid" parliamentary group only the number of MPs. But to fix this it is probbaly not appropriate to adopt a case by case strategy, because there is probably something missing at a general level here. Something that you noticed at the local level as soon as you started to import metadata in a structured way and the confusion between the two levels (parliamentary group and party) and the ambiguity of the property (too generic, in theory) have emerged.

wikidata can be rigid mainly if people who use it are rigid. It's up to people to see an opportunity or stuck with (or force) a obsolete or partial interpretation, I totally see the opportunity here. the fact that I see it does not mean that I define incorrect something that at the moment is formally correct or that fixing one case in a way and the other in another way will help to fix the issue faster or more efficiently.--Alexmar983 (talk) 05:28, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Well, a more specific property seems to exist: Property:P1410... Why cant' we use it?--Caarl 95 (talk) 20:56, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Caarl 95, I looked for it but was not used in any of the items I opened (I don't know all the properties, I simply look inside 4 or 5 different items related to the topic, especially the most important ones). So I think we could use it. In any case a small discussion at a village pump would be better to standardize the use, that is which is more correct to use (even if both of them) in the party item and the parliamentary group item. Later, a small addendum could be inserted in the talk page of the property. In addition to that, it should be nice if you can check if the properties are correctly used at least in all the items that you are interested. So, can you open a thread at the village pump? I know it's boring but this is a centralized archive and has influence on dozens of platforms, especially here it is not always productive to be bold.--Alexmar983 (talk) 04:03, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Dear Caarl95, could we please discuss this before you change this again? The property is used in de:Vorlage:MdEP-Zahl, your changes are breaking this page. As Alexmar983 already stated, this object is a group in the EP, not a political party. The group has 40 members. I still don't understand what else you would count as members of this group instead of the numbers of MEPs which are members of this group. Property P1410 is not correct, see the description "number of seats a political party or a division has in a given legislature". Again, ENF is a group, not a political party. You can use P1410 for MENF, which is the corresponding political party, but not for ENF. --ElTres (talk) 14:14, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Before making my last edit I've reached approval both from Alexmar and here, so I thought that there was consensus enough on the matter. The fact that this is a parliamentary group isn't important IMHO because the property indicates the same thing (number of MPs). The other property indicates the number of people enrolled to an organization! How can you use it for a completely different thing? The actual consensus is anyway for using the property P140 as I pointed out before...--Caarl 95 (talk) 22:46, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Ah, by the way, if I'm breaking the template on de.wiki, you are breaking the template on it.wiki, that uses the property correctly. That is the reason why I've made my edits, since the result is that, with the infobox showing 40 "iscritti" (number of people enrolled to the party), while obviously the real number of people enrolled is 0....--Caarl 95 (talk) 22:53, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Ps: For example, the number of people enrolled in SPD (Mitglieder) is 442.814, while the number of Mps in Bundestag is 193! They are two different things!--Caarl 95 (talk) 23:04, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Pps: I link the discussion also to the italian-speaking project chat, since it involves the use of a template on it.wiki. --Caarl 95 (talk) 23:07, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

That is exactly the point. SPD has 442.814 members and the SPD group in Bundestag has 193 members. ENF is a group in the European Parliament, not a party. It has exactly 40 members.--ElTres (talk) 21:06, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

How can a "parliamentary group" have people enrolled to it? A parliamentary group has only MPs, since all the members of this group are enrolled to another party (for example, Salvini is enrolled to Lega Nord, not to this "parliamentary group"). Moreover it isn't true that P1410 can be used only for the parties. The description says that the property indicates "number of seats a political party, faction, or group has in a given legislature". I don't know how to explain myself, each of us continues to have the same opinion, and the discussion seems to have ground to a halt. We have had only two other opinions on the matter and they agreed to use Property P1410, instead of property P2124 so, please, if you find other people agreeing with you we can continue debating, otherwise I think that we should use property P1410.--Caarl 95 (talk) 23:17, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

You are right, we cannot solve this here. I start a discussion on Wikidata:Project chat again. --ElTres (talk) 14:26, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

PS: Again you are exactly stating the correct argument: "How can a "parliamentary group" have people enrolled to it?" The group is composed of MPs. It is not possible for you and me to enroll to the group. All members of the group are MEPs and therefore the number of its members is the number of the MEPs in this group. --ElTres (talk) 14:53, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Number of members of the European Parliament enrolled in the ENF-Group

Hi ElTres, according to http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/de/hemicycle.html the ENF-Group now has 39 members of the European Parliament enrolled in it. The number decreased from 40 to 39 because w:en:Vicky Maeijer left the European Parliament and whith this automaticly also the ENF-Group with the end of March 15th 2017 because she had been elected into the Tweede Kamer der Staten-Generaal (dutch parliament) which she is member of since march 23rd 2017. Up to today her seat is still unoccupied so the total number of members of the European Parliament is also still reduced to 750 from 751. Therefore I correted P1410 to 39 and think that your revert is not correct. --X:: black ::X (talk) 13:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)