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User talk:Salgo60

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Welcome to Wikidata, Salgo60!

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Previous discussion was archived at User talk:Salgo60/Archive 1 on 2018-05-21.

Structured Data - blogs posted in Wikimedia Space

MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)

There are two separate blog entries for Structured Data on Commons posted to Wikimedia Space that are of interest:

  • Working with Structured Data on Commons: A Status Report, by Lucas Werkmeister, discusses some ways that editors can work with structured data. Topics include tools that have been written or modified for structured data, in addition to future plans for tools and querying services.
  • Structured Data on Commons - A Blog Series, written by me, is a five-part posting that covers the basics of the software and features that were built to make structured data happen. The series is meant to be friendly to those who may have some knowledge of Commons, but may not know much about the structured data project.
I hope these are informative and useful, comments and questions are welcome. All the blogs offer a comment feature, and you can log in with your Wikimedia account using oAuth. I look forward to seeing some posts over there. -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 21:33, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Reply to "Structured Data - blogs posted in Wikimedia Space"

Reminder: Community Insights Survey

MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)

RMaung (WMF) 19:54, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Reply to "Reminder: Community Insights Survey"

Constraint: "Item described by source (P1343) = Dictionary of Swedish National Biography (Q379406)"

Jagulin (talkcontribs)

I found that Dictionary of Swedish National Biography (P3217) has a constraint "Item described by source (P1343) = Dictionary of Swedish National Biography (Q379406)" generating 6391 violations. You "recently" added that constraint I believe. You didn't mention the constraint when proposing the property. Did the lack of control turn out to be a problem? Can you elaborate on the usefulness of P1343? It seems to be a much older system, adding the specific ID is of course in itself saying that subject exists in SBL. Are there any tools that use the P1343 only? Or do you see it mostly as a "double check"? If there is a reason to have both, the violations should be (validated and) closed with a bot. With this many violations there is little enouragement to follow the new rule.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)
  1. SBL is one of the best sources in Sweden and I would say every article in SBL is a very good article about the person
  2. the SBL property was one of the first I suggested I guess in 2016 and as we are getting over 4000 external identifiers in Wikidata not everyone is a prefered source to read some are better and some and not much value so my idea is that using P1343 is to indicate this is good read compare in sv:WIkipedia "Vidare läsning"
    1. Interfaces like
    2. yes I thought of mass update it with Quick statement but my priolist is long ;-) see

Dont hesitate to contact me I am at the University and Wikimania the next days and you can reach me on 0705937579 I will also be in BErlin on WIkidata later this year... SBL has fascinated me as its a very good source, less well know, nearly no understanding of the semantic web and very very bad web interface

Example how Wikidocumentary use P1343 (is application under development) but I see that we in the future will support writers in WIkipedia better with data in Wikidata and I guess P1343 is a one way of telling the writer check this source....

Jagulin (talkcontribs)

Actually I noticed because of Alf. Larson (Q5936623). Irony gives that you added the ID years ago. You also changed the Swedish label (which I agree is a bit strange), but I changed it back now. SBL didn't seem to clearly support your change, so I rather added stated as (P1932) to qualify the SBL ID.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

No problem.... We have since I started with SBL in WIkidata als done projects moving all Swedish Church parishes to Wikidata see

i.e. I try to use the Church parish but I feel we should have 2 properties in WIkidata one for the actual place a person died and one for the location.... but as said before.... a lot of possibilities....

I have done some less scientific checks on how other deliver its data....

Jagulin (talkcontribs)
Jagulin (talkcontribs)

Sorry, didn't see your reply before posting the draft I had forgotten about. Nevertheless, I wasn't asking about SBL itself, I was more questioning P1343 when there is an ID property as well. Even with the Wikidocumentary example, I don't see how P1343 is more useful than the ID properties (e.g. P3217) themselves, P1343 doesn't say those sources are more trusted than others. But if you say it's used and you were planning to close the warnings I'll leave it as is.

Keep up the good works and have fun at Wikimania, I won't be there.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

In SBL you also have pages about a family and then that page is not "same as" a person see example Q63241589

Jagulin (talkcontribs)

Interesting exception. That could have been a SBL family ID or perhaps a "family" qualifier to the "SBL person ID". Or instead drop those ID and have the P1343 only. It's the duplication I think is waste.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)
Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

The scenario I see is that Wikidata will be used when the editor creates/change Wikipedia articles and then we should help the editor to use the best sources available... as we now have > 4000 external identifier not everyone is the best for the editor to start with... if this suggestion should be done in P1343 or with some ranking etc... I think we will learn.....

Example how I played around with a book about Q657118 and we have an excellent book Q61765464 that i is referenced 100 times > we can write a SPARQL query see also GITHUB

I feel this is an excellent source that I think should be told the writer that it exists when changing an article about a person/church/... that it exists at RAÄ

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

TRUST is another thing Wikidata can be better on... I spoke yesterday at Wikimania with @Jens Ohlig (WMDE): who told me how good the german National Library GND is and when they create Authority data they tell you this person is the same as and add sources etc.... I feel they have the same level of "TRUST" as P3217 SBL

The "problem" I see with WIkidata is that SBL > 7500 people are used in > 200 language wikis in articles and its nearly impossible for a person in India to understand if a fact with a source from SBL or GND is good or if he/she should trust FindAgrave more.,..

I started this "blog" about this issue and I feel Wikipedia is a good platform for at least evaluate a source or explain challenges problems.....

see also my try in Swedish describing SBL I also mention this challenge in the presentation I did at Linked Data Sweden

Slowking4 (talkcontribs)

hi, i noticed you used SBL and SKBL as an id property, rather than a item subject for a "described by source" property. i think the latter would be better in that the reference sources include biographical articles like the Dictionary of National Biography, rather than a authority control number only.

for the SKBL i added the "described by source" for example Q50926566

for the pre-existing example of this usage see also Q692

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

I agree that "described by source" is correct but I also would like to have them as id property for SPARQL queries.... I have started a process to get the Swedish national archives to set up SPARQL federations see

With the P3217 SBL we have the following two scenarios

  • Biography articles about a person
    • I use P3217 as an id property as Wikidata is "same as" SBL
    • and add it to "described by source"
  • Family related articles describing more people i.e. WIkidata is not "same as" SBL
    • only "described by source" is used....

cc: @Jagulin

Jagulin (talkcontribs)

@Slowking4 Hi, thanks for joining this discussion. We may want to take the bigger discussion elsewhere, but for the moment: Can you elaborate on the usefulness of described by source (P1343)? It seems to be a much older system, adding the specific ID is of course in itself saying that subject exists in SBL. Are there any tools that use the P1343 only?

Can you point to any "ID property" that is strictly only an ID? It may not have been the intention originally, but I'd say that these days the "ID" is more often a reference for more information (and thus the P1343 is redundant). See e.g. that is the Shakespear grave ID.

Slowking4 (talkcontribs)

yes, the existing ontology for biographical dictionaries, that include sections of text, use "described by source" i am used to biographical dictionaries without indexes, and authority control numbers at libraries that include a number without a text biography. i.e. P214 and P227; however another example where there are both, is ODNB where there is an id number , and text (behind a paywall): i.e. P1415 and Q17565097 - you could make the case for the same here, where you have a stable identifier text string, and an online text biography.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

I see the following user cases:

1) User case support Wikipedia editors

As an editor of an Wiki article I would like to get suggestion of sources to use from Wikidata

Solution: From Wikidata present what is available for he editor from he field "described by source"

2) User case support Validate data from external sources using external identifiers and SPARQL

As Wikidata is open free daa ha everyone can change we need more tools for checking the data with external identifies

Solution: Set up solutions like I have done with Nobel Prize were I check the data every night

Reply to "Constraint: "Item described by source (P1343) = Dictionary of Swedish National Biography (Q379406)""
Bovlb (talkcontribs)
Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

I guess this was done before we got structured data on commons. I am on a mobile traveling in Indonesia so I have problem checking things

Reply to "2-d locations within 3-d artwork"
MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)

RMaung (WMF) 17:38, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Reply to "Community Insights Survey"

Etiketter för externa identifierare

Larske (talkcontribs)

Hej, bra att du lägger in svenska etiketter där det saknas för egenskaper som är av typen "External identifier". Men jag tror det blir konstigt om du utelämnar "ID", "författar-ID" och liknande och bara skriver utfärdarens namn som etikett på Identifieraren. Det må passa bättre med en kortare etikett i en "auktoritetsdatamall", men om du jämför med vad etiketten heter på andra språk så det du att det är olämpligt. Utfärdarens namn ska in under P2378 och möjligen i Beskrivningen av egenskapen, men etiketten bör nog inte förenklas såsom du har gjort i till exempel P3786. "Dansk film" bör vara "Dansk film person-ID", "BNA" bör vara "BNA ID" (minst) och så vidare.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)


Jag gör en bold test med Strindberg ... det är "bara svenska" och relativt enkelt att fixa tillbaka...

  • mina vaga funderingar
    • det framgår av context ofta att det är en identifierare
      • finns det flera identifierare behövs typ konstnär bok, verk
    • skall det som står i mallen hämtas från annat ställe typ som du gjorde med namn för församlingar som ändras över tid. I namn fältet Property:P2561 finns även stöd för språk vilket är enormt bra,.....
    • Mallen och i "Wikidatabasen" har kanske andra krav eller behövs mer stöd i "Wikidata"
      • Mallen
        • kort
        • mouse over visar mer
      • Wikidata mode
        • kanske lite längre
        • borde enklare kunna visa beskrivningen
        • tycker "din" tanke med utfärdad av borde finnas som mouse over även i WIkidata

Larske (talkcontribs)

...det framgår... köper jag inte.

...hämtas från annat ställe... Ja, troligen eller åtminstone formateras på lämpligt sätt, men det är en uppgift för mallen. Ändra inte rådata så att det ska passa för en viss tillämpning som i detta fall bara är en prototyp av en mall.

...har kanske andra krav... Ja just det.

...Wikidata mode... och ...mouse over i Wikidata... oklart vad du menar, skilj på vad som ligger i databasen och hur det presenteras i olika "user interface".

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)
Larske (talkcontribs)

Ja, där ser man ju tydligt hur de engelska etiketterna (i 99 % av fallen) innehåller "ID", medan det saknas för många svenska etiketter. Jag föredrar de engelska etiketterna.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

@André Costa (WMSE): vad tycker du....

"Wikidata mode" är när du klickar dig till Wikidata Q7724

fick en fundering varför ger vi inte bättre stöd vad som menas. Idag visas vid Mouse over "Property:P119" vilket skulle kunna vara bättre.... kanske inte prio 1 men....

det framgår

  • står du i "Wikidata mode" behöver man inte förklara att det är en identifierare....
    • Svenskt översättarlexikon
      • är alltid en pekare på en person som det ser ut idag dvs. jag tycker inte det behöver finnas med person eller...
      • kan tänka mig att ""översatta verk kommer men då kan man uppdatera lablar....
        • kanske lite väl bold
    • Svenskt biografiskt lexikon
      • Tycker i mallen SBL räcker med mouse over
    • P535 Find A Grave
      • har 2 idn
        • person
        • kyrkogård
      • där är 99% av egenskaperna för person
        • varianter
          • P535
            • Find A Grave
            • Find A Grave person
            • Find A Grave person ID
          • P2025
            • Find-A-Grave begravningsplatsid
        • jag tycker Find A Grave fungerar både i Mall och "Wikidata mode"
Salgo60 (talkcontribs)
André Costa (WMSE) (talkcontribs)

Jag håller med om att ID bör behållas i etiketterna. Mitt grundförhållande är alltid att rådatat ska vara så rätt som möjligt, sedan är det upp till nedströms användare (i detta fall mallen) att göra tolkningar/anpassningar (dvs liknande det som @Larske nämnde ovan). Så för Find A Grave memorial ID (P535) skulle jag behålla både id och något som gör det tydligt att det är för en persons gravplats (jag skulle undvika att kalla det person ID om de själva anser att det är om gravplatsen snarare än personen).

Om vissa av etiketterna är direkt olämpliga för en faktaruta så kan man (i mall modulen) lägga någon typ av mappnignstabell för lokala etiketter.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

@André Costa (WMSE), Larske: tror allt skall vara "tillbaka". Tanken med att visa alla egenskaper ligger lite i träda.... och jag tror att visa allt kanske är fel approach när nu externa identifierare exploderar.... plus strulet med typ Ksamsök som inte har en html sida utan blir RDF...

Hittade Wikidocumentaries / Telegram som kanske är där det skall vara kopplingar till Bygdeband/Riksarkivet/Instagram..... skall försöka vara med på deras Hackhaton se

Reply to "Etiketter för externa identifierare"
Ainali (talkcontribs)

Hej! Efter att ha fått grubbla en natt, vad tror du om spaces och sessions som objekt kopplade till Wikimania 2019 (Q48010913)? Man skulle ju kunna slänga på de nämnda Sustainable Development Goals (Q7649586) på sessionerna och spåren får ju så klart kopplingar till Commons-kategorin. Både spår och sessioner kan ha sitelinks till Wikimaniawikin (under övriga), och sessionerna får ju image (P18), video (P10), presentation och anteckningar som skulle kunna länkas samman. Frågan är väl vilka egenskaper som passar för de två senare.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

@Ainali:Jag skickade frågan vidare till Telegram Wikidata gruppen om anteckningar / presentation

Ainali (talkcontribs)
Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

@Ainali: snyggt känns dock rätt att lyfta detta med att ha en Wikibase... kan det vara bättre kompetens per ytarea för att lyckas.... en variant är att vi kör as usual med Wikisidor och bygger vidare en Wikibase till efter konferanse... för presentationer (eller mer)

cc: u@Tore Danielsson (WMSE) fixa lite snabba burkar .... nu kör vi...

Reply to "Wikimania"
Marsupium (talkcontribs)

Hey, since I haven't taken up adding them since Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2019/05#Does Wikidata lack a Quality mindset? Sometimes it feels more like a playground for python exercises...? I wanted to ask you if you still oppose adding them? As I tried to point out, I didn't add them as an end in itself, but prefer to have references for the statements I've added them to, mainly place of birth (P19), place of death (P20), sex or gender (P21), occupation (P106), and consider ULAN to be a professional, reliable and itself sourced tertiary source.

In addition, for most cases I don't see much chance for getting much different sources for that data. Note that for that data there mostly isn't a source in Wikipedia (at least English and German versions) and it is often enough disputable.

I manually work on lists like c:Category:Creator templates with Wikidata link: mismatching birthdate, WD:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Creators same name or WD:Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P245#Female according to Wikidata, male according to ULAN where sources are key. I add a lot of sources manually which is tedious work. The automatically added references ease it in my eyes.

Thanks for your reply, m.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

@Marsupium: this is complex and I think we learn all the time... I have no knowledge of the quality/ work process of ULAN.

And I can see more benefits of adding good or less good references....

When doing genealogy We started to speak about "" i.e. something that is just a hint that this could be something but not a something you trust and not a good evidence.... that could be one way forward

BUT the problem I see is when "breadcrumbs" is also displayed in Wikipedia articles. I guess every Wiki is creating there own Wikidata driven templates and I guess have there own rules/logic who I guess is a bad pattern. In Sweden when we use a Wikidata driven template we display in the sv:WIkipedia article 3 sources but not the one important from another wiki.... so if a "breadcrumb" source is on top 3 it will appear in the article....

So I have no good answer but I hope we add a layer to Wikidata that tries to rank sources so what is shown in the Wikipedia article can be trusted see my confused thoughts

Reply to "What about ULAN references now?"

Alla Properties är inte External Identifiers

Larske (talkcontribs)

Kan du sluta skriva Property när du bara menar sådana Properties som är External identifier. Det finns långt mer än 4000 properties. Jag har sett att du slarvar med det på såväl Project chat som på Twitter. För alla som inte följt diskussionen om mallen på svwp kan detta vara mycket förvirrande.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)
Larske (talkcontribs)

Lite bättre, men fortfarande lite konstigt. Propertyn är fortfarande en intern Wikidatasak, men det är dess typ, External identifier, som är det som har med "extern" att göra. "Properties of type External identifier" bör det nog vara.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

Kan bero på att det är rörigt i min skalle...

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

När jag har dig på tråden tycker det är enormt snyggt det du gör och snabbt..... för mig som "bor" i alla dessa identifierare funkar det men är inte 100 hur det funkar för normala människor..... dagens Auktoritetsdata mall är bra att ha tycker jag men det känns som bara World cat har en "landingssida" som uppfyller det man kan kräva 2019

Inte lätt detta men jag bir imponerad av WIkidata....

Reply to "Alla Properties är inte External Identifiers"
Nikantmark (talkcontribs)
Salgo60 (talkcontribs)
Nikantmark (talkcontribs)

In fact, I have already created a template there for this project. To continue, simply create separate wikidata item for all objects and link them using properties such as part of - for an object and it has part for Skansen. For Google, it may be quite important to get as much information and valid identifiers as possible. Hälsnigar.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

@Nikantmark "template there for this project" ?!?!?!

my plan is to get a consistency between Kulturnav and WIkidata --> = Skansens byggnadsmiljöer (Skansen) that has parts Skansens byggnader =

I have started with some Python code but my feeling is that what Skansen has done is not 100% logic... ;-) I guess 98% is correct today but I would like to go there and take more photos etc.... is the plan.... I guess now is the time of the year when its better taking photos... (talkcontribs)

but my feeling is that what Skansen has done is not 100% logic... ;-)

If you mean the Skansen website, then in my humble opinion this website has еру terrible and incorrect information architecture, irrelevant structured data, еру chaotic hierarchical structure of web pages. In short, everything is bad there. Probably the web administrator / webmaster of this website stopped in its development somewhere in 2007. Probably this website has no a ban of Google just because it is the official website of this open-air museum. However, I consider it the shame that this is one of the main tourist attractions in Sweden and has such the bad website. When I came to help them, it was ignored.

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

Agree most of the culture institutions are a mess and they dont use Digitalisation to deliver something better. I have added maybe 5-10 Properties to WIkidata see my Phabricator workspace but the communication with the museums or reuse is nearly nothing only exception is a commercial company Arkiv Digital

Example of things I have done

My feeling is that liked data could make that one museum created material that the next could use....

I tweeted today about the new possibilities I see with the WIkibase installation that today was set in production on WIkicommons implementing I can see the possibility with easier also supporting multilingual experiences see tweet

Nikantmark (talkcontribs)

In my humble opinion, the Skansen website has an wrong hierarchical structure. They have the zoo, the aquarium, the museum (the most famous part of Skansen with many separate objects) and the children's playground. All this you will not see on the home page and this is their huge problem with the structure of the website. In addition, the UX of the home page leaves much to be desired. Of course, there is no work with the data there, although Google constantly focuses webmasters on working with data.

The Kulturnav you reported has the database in the format rdf-xml which is now outdated and little used because of the excessive code and as a result has strong loading web channels. Currently, Google uses dataset structured data and there is quite a bit of information about creating relevant data.

Do you have the resident of Sweden? If you are the Kulturnav worker, I can assist you in creating a database that will be relevant to the rich results of SERP Google. And anyway, I can help you with many web problems. I am the expert for the websites included in the category Your Money Or Your Life (YMYL) which includes almost all websites representing the medical business. Also I am the expert of Expertise, Authoritativeness, Trustworthiness (EAT) and the expert of structured/linked data all of this with nikname nikant25. You can directly contact me by email

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)
Nikantmark (talkcontribs)

In my humble opinion, Sweden has huge problems with websites representing some kind of business.  This can have negative consequences for the Swedish economy. If you noticed, many Swedish video rental companies have closed or collapsed after Netflix landed in Sweden. Currently, this scenario can be repeated with the arrival of the Amazon in Sweden. Check out my article Gratis sökmotoroptimering till företagswebbplatser. This backlog of Sweden in the informatics sector can turn the country into an informational “banan republic”. I tried to influence this, but probably I do not have good communication skills with the Swedes. If you wish, then we can try to change it.

For example, Kulturnav is the database. Each object in this database is has file as rdf-xml. Their website is outdated by about 12 years. Here you can optimize the following:

- Create a database based on the format JSON-LD. This is the serialization format and this format is used by the Google Knowledge Graph.

- Fully optimize or even create a new website from scratch. which will correspond to all modern search algorithms.

- Build structured data for this website and create linked data with object of format JSON-LD of files.

All this will create a representation of the objects of this database in three levels, such as:

- The user level at which the website can be viewed on any input device.

- A search engine level at which search robots and artificial intelligence will be able to get all the information about each object and which will be useful for machine learning.

- The level of the server, which will be information to exchange between servers. This will be the database for REST.

All this can be created for any database in Sweden, for example for the Swedish Open Cultural Heritage, SELIBR ID identifier per National Library of Sweden Libris library catalog, Kungliga biblioteket, Swedish Nationalencyklopedin ( site and so on.

The next rather interesting example is the Swedish Chamber of Commerce. Their website states the following: "Sweden's Chambers of commerce primarily promote infrastructure projects in which Sweden's Chambers of commerce wishes to see more interaction between the state and private enterprise". If you look at the website THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE OF MÄLARDALEN (my location) then on the start page you will not find any information about any particular business or business project that this chamber is promoting. There are many smiling faces, breakfast and lunch information, but there is no information at all about the subject mentioned in the main website, such as business promotion. This is even contrary to the basic principles of Google for webmasters: do not be fooled by users. Such websites may well be considered as spam.

What is your opinion: Can we cooperate in helping for Swedish websites?

Med vänlig hälsning,

Nikolaj Antonov

Salgo60 (talkcontribs)

I agree the problem i see is skills and competencies... and I can also see a big difference between "business" living in a commercial environment and tax paid....

I have given up communicating with those institutions and I guess some of them will disappear....

I feel kulturnav is an early test of LOD but it doesnt develop ---> so nothing happens. I have tried speaking with them on twitter and also visit a user group meeting but I guess nthing will happen.... I guess Structured data in Wikicmmns and WIkibase will maybe be a game changer....


Magnus Sälgöälgö-148890/

Nikantmark (talkcontribs)

I guess Structured data in Wikicmmns and WIkibase will maybe be a game changer....

Here the following scenario is possible. More specific information on Wikidat will link all the data submitted and Google will return search results for all the languages and data presented. Currently mobile traffic accounts for approximately 57% of total web traffic. These mobile users will see information about places of interest to them in Sweden and will actively follow these links. However, due to the fact that all these websites have very low download speeds, and many do not have a mobile design, users will leave after 3 seconds waiting for the download. Google informs us: "In the latest research into the mobile brand, experiences have unearthed data that reinforces what you may already suspect: Speed and relevance are crucial to customer satisfaction". According to BrightEdge, 69 percent of mobile searchers stated they were more likely to buy from a brand with a mobile site that addressed their concerns. There will be a large percentage of users coming out (in 1-3 seconds) from these websites and the popularity of these websites will decrease. Google will notice this and begin to study these websites more closely. There he will see that these websites contradict almost all Google recommendations for webmasters. Surely these websites will fall under Google’s algorithmic penalty and will be lowered in search rank. At best, these websites will return to their old place in the search rank, but can be lowered even lower (if there is still a place to go down). Thus all your work and my work will have no effect and benefit. This job will not make sense, because in search engine optimization all parts of the website, both online and offline, and files and UX are linked in a single tangle.

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