Wikidata:Property proposal/hair or facial hair style

hairstyleEdit

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Person

   Done: hairstyle (P8839) (Talk and documentation)
Descriptionstyle of cutting, arranging, or combing the hair on the subject's scalp
Representsfictional character (Q95074), human (Q5)
Data typeItem
Domainitem
Allowed valuessubclasses of hairstyle (Q327496)
Example 1Junko Enoshima (Q97667530)bunches (Q10619158)
Example 2Donald Trump (Q22686)comb over (Q2439902) ( qualifier statement is subject of (P805)Donald Trump's hair (Q27493213) )
Example 3Coriander (Q54858060)bunches (Q10619158) ( qualifier of (P642)afro (Q388036) )
Example 4Marge Simpson (Q7828)beehive (Q675146)
Expected completenessalways incomplete (Q21873886)
See also

MotivationEdit

Most fictional characters and many real-life celebrities and state leaders are characterized by a specific hairstyle. As there's no other properties to record such statements i hereby propose this property. This modeling can already be seen being used by online databases such as VNDB, Anime Characters Database and AniDB. @Shisma, Arlo Barnes:Trade (talk) 12:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

DiscussionEdit

Voting

  • "there's no other properties to record such statements" - no, there is wears (P3828) (38 statements), but it translates badly on various languages and does not even match its description, so   Support. --Lockal (talk) 16:36, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
  •   Support --Shisma (talk) 16:59, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
  •   Comment in some languages, there are two words for "hair", depending on whether it's on top of the head or in the face. Accordingly, one might want to have a separate property for the later. Also, both have separate types of values and one doesn't replace the other. @Trade, Shisma, Arlo Barnes, Tinker Bell, Lockal: --- Jura 08:31, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
    Cant we use one property for both? @Jura1:--Trade (talk) 14:45, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
    Above I outline the advantages of having two properties. What would be the advantages of having one? --- Jura 14:50, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
    What should the other property be called? Just 'beard' or 'facial hair'? --Trade (talk) 11:04, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
    What about values that blur the lines, like payot (Q769737) (which could be construed as the uppermost part of the sideburns -- facial hair -- or the lowermost part of the scalp hairs above the cheeks)? Also, what about body hair styles? Arlo Barnes (talk) 18:54, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
    If it's meant for body paint or body hair, maybe "hairstyle" isn't really suitable either. It should be possible to sort out other values. --- Jura 08:43, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
    I think body paint would be different...to me what the different categories mentioned here have in common is that every person either grows or doesn't grow hair in a given place on their body, which can change throughout their lives but is addressed in one way or another. If they grow hair in a place, perhaps they epilate it, or otherwise style it; if they don't, perhaps they wear a wig (which is another clothes/hair borderline case). Either way, what decisions they make regarding this cultural and cross-cultural reality is a means of expression; as the proposal says, often a characteristic one. Of course, clothes and other decorations are too, but not integrated with the body in the same way. That wouldn't be the only criterion for the scope of this property, since clearly we aren't referring to how someone styles a prosthetic limb or contacts...but I think the property proposer leads the way with defining scope, and it's up to the ensuing discussion to accept or reject a given scope, so I'll wait for Trade to weigh in. Anyway, the property scope question is separate from the linguistic description question, although they influence each other. We don't need a perfect label in every language, just a non-misleading one; the description and Wikidata usage instructions (P2559) can fill in the rest. Arlo Barnes (talk) 20:18, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Most items about beards uses hairstyle (Q327496) as a instance or subclass. Hence i went with the assumption that the term 'hairstyle' applies to both head hair and beards. @Arlo Barnes, Jura1:--Trade (talk) 11:04, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
  • I suppose if this passes, the constraints on hair color (P1884) should be updated to allow it to be a qualifier also? Arlo Barnes (talk) 18:54, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
    I'll rather this being it's own property to allow for the use of qualifiers. --Trade (talk) 11:04, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
    Ah, sorry for the confusion. I meant that it makes sense for 'colour' to be a qualifier for 'style', not the other way around. Arlo Barnes (talk) 15:53, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
  •   Support useful for fictional characters, probably also for the description of paintings and other visual art. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 11:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
  •   Wait I don't see that the discussion about whether we want one property that mixes both hair on the head and facial hair into one or separate properties for both as concluded. My intuition is like Jura's that separate properties would be more useful. A Wikipedia infobox that wants to include hairstyle might not want to load descriptions about someone's beard. ChristianKl❫ 19:11, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
@Jura1:, @ChristianKl: Willing to support now? --Trade (talk) 19:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
@Trade: In general I don't support propoisals that describe a property simply by repeating it's name. If we define the property to exclude facial hair, that's important information for the description. Maybe "style of cutting, arranging, or combing the hair on the subject's scalp"? This sentence seems that it contains the information but maybe someone else can word it better. ChristianKl❫ 20:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
(personal view) I didn't oppose the creation of the property, but I still prefer the approach with two (you could add both on this page). (property creator view) I think there is/was a consensus for a combined property. --- Jura 21:09, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
So what do we do with payot (Q769737)?--Trade (talk) 11:46, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
@Trade: The description on Wikidata says that payot (Q769737) is about scalp hairs maybe "hair of the subject's scalp" in the description? ChristianKl❫ 11:54, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  Comment I don't see that this decision needs to be a blocker; we're debating between 1 or more properties to describe hair, and currently we have 0 aside from 'wears' and 'hair colour'. What if we make one with a narrow scope of scalp hairs, and then either create another property proposal for facial and/or body hair or widen the scope of this one later if necessary? Anyway, I think it could be good to start compiling queries to find statements in use that imply a 'hairstyle' statement would be appropriate for that item, something like 'wears'=hair tie (Q384775) Arlo Barnes (talk) 06:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@Jura1:, @ChristianKl: Done --Trade (talk) 13:27, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

  •   Support with name 'hairstyle' and description 'style of cutting, arranging, or combing the hair on the subject's scalp'. ChristianKl❫ 19:26, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Modelling -- recommend this gets moved to property_talk:P8839 sections now the property has been created

How shall we deal with people wearing wigs or toupée? @ChristianKl, Arlo Barnes:--Trade (talk) 02:03, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

At first I was going to respond 'just like natural hair' but then I saw what you mean, I think. A wig hime cut (Q1049372) is different from the grown equivalent. I think we could either do it as 'hairstyle=wig' with qualifier 'genre (or something better suited)=hime', or the other way around: 'hairstyle=hime', 'object has role=wig'. I have a slight preference for the second. edit: of course if it's a notable hairpiece it can receive an item unto itself, and then I think 'wears' is appropriate. Arlo Barnes (talk) 04:42, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
@Arlo Barnes, Jura1: Baldness? No value? Or baldness (Q181391)?--Trade (talk) 17:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Trade, Arlo Barnes: hairstyle (P8839) if you want to help completing it, don't hesistate. I think the toupée thing can still be sorted out. --- Jura 17:01, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

You are very welcome to help. There's still some stuff described at the talk page that needs sorted out. @Jura1:--Trade (talk) 13:21, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

facial hairEdit

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Person

   Done: facial hair (P8852) (Talk and documentation)
Descriptionstyle of cutting, arranging, or combing the hair on the subject's face (usually on the chin, cheeks, and upper lip region)
Representsfictional character (Q95074), human (Q5)
Data typeItem
Domainitem
Allowed valuessubclasses of facial hair (Q1847641)
Example 1Abraham Lincoln (Q91)chin curtain (Q942900)
Example 2Adolf Hitler (Q352)toothbrush moustache (Q7824282)
Example 3Anthony van Dyck (Q150679)Van Dyke beard (Q1776959)
Example 4Fu Manchu (Q1357701)Fu Manchu moustache (Q5506845)
Example 5Ambrose Burnside (Q355444)sideburns (Q890356)
Example 6Julia Pastrana (Q240912)goatee (Q2014570) (qualifier has cause (P828)HTGH (Q20763828))
Expected completenessalways incomplete (Q21873886)
See also

MotivationEdit

see discussion in 'hairstyle' section

DiscussionEdit