Wikidata:Property proposal/heading

heading edit

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

Not done

Represents	heading (Q3529597)
Data type	Monolingual text
Domain	property
Allowed values	text
Example 1	Q538708#P570: 23 July 2012 reference: reference URL (P854) http://www.cadenaser.com/cultura/articulo/muere-editora-escritora-esther-tusquets/csrcsrpor/20120723csrcsrcul_1/Tes publisher (P123) Cadena SER (Q1025113) heading `Muere la editora y escritora Esther Tusquets` (monolingual text language: Spanish)
Example 2	MISSING
Example 3	MISSING
See also	published in (P1433): larger work that a given work was published in, like a book, journal or music album title of broader work (P6333): title of website, journal or other work in which an article (or other publication) is published in. Use "published in" (P1433) instead if possible. section, verse, paragraph, or clause (P958): paragraph, or other kind of special indication to find information on a page or on a document (legal texts etc.)

Motivation edit

To distinguish typographically between titles and headings (headlines, chapter titles, etc.) in references. Essentially the same as title (P1476), but the value should be shown within quotation marks instead of in italics when it appears on Wikipedia. As far as I know, title (P1476) is used for all types of titles and headlines, resulting in two italicized titles in a row in lists of references on Wikipedia, e.g. when we reference an article in a newspaper or on a website, a chapter in a book or other publication, or an article in a dictionary or encyclopedia. This is also the case when stated in (P248) is used alongside title (P1476).

Please note that different language have different quotation marks, such as:

“English”
”Swedish”
„German”
«Norwegian»
« French »
etc.

Therefore I suggest that neutral quotation marks be used as default, until the correct ones are added for each language:

"Default"

/Förbätterlig (talk) 12:02, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Text moved from samples in template)

In Esther Tusquets (Q538708), in one reference for date of death (P570), a news headline has been added under title (P1476). On Wikidata, this only becomes: Muere la editora y escritora Esther Tusquets. But on (Swedish) Wikipedia it is rendered as Muere la editora y escritora Esther Tusquets, when it should be ”Muere la editora y escritora Esther Tusquets”. What's needed instead is a property that functions essentially like title (P1476), but which results in quotation marks instead of italics, so that references that are automatically imported from Wikidata to Wikipedia have the same (correct) format as the rest of the references listed. This new property would then be combined with either stated in (P248) or title (P1476)

What I'm suggesting is another property like title (P1476), but with the key difference that it results in quotation marks instead of italics on Wikipedia, so that titles and headings look like they should in lists of references. Currently, title (P1476) is being used for both titles of works and headlines therein.

Discussion edit

Support Förbätterlig (talk) 12:02, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand this - you've asked for a monolingual text datatype, so the language will already be known when the entry is created; why is there an issue of quotation marks in different languages? Also this seems to be an end run around allowing more general wikitext markup in a string field; I'm sure there's a phab ticket on this, but the general reason it hasn't been done in Wikidata is because that usually means the text is not a uniform field but is structured in some way, and so for proper structured data purposes should be split into the separate parts. Your examples all seem to be cases where there are two parts to the title (this is for titles, right?) - can the components of that title split be clearly identified and structured separately? ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:55, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't get it either. Can you use some examples that explains which items are used and where the values are coming from? Right now it looks like something that should be handle by the reusing client rather than being stored as a value. Ainali (talk) 14:58, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ArthurPSmith, Ainali: If you want to reference a newspaper article, for example, you'd use stated in (P248) or possibly title (P1476) for the title of the newspaper and then title (P1476) for the headline. These appear in italics on Wikipedia, but headlines should be within quotation marks instead. I assumed the easiest way to resolve this would be to use separate properties. Förbätterlig (talk) 15:48, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So shouldn't you be asking for a "headline" property then? (i.e. JUST the headline, not the place where it is - so for your first one the value of the property would be simply "Wikimedia awarded the Nobel Prize", with no quotation marks? ArthurPSmith (talk) 12:42, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I probably filled that out incorrectly. Also I wasn't sure if the term "headline" could be used universally, e.g. for chapter titles, dictionary/encyclopedia entries, etc. so that's why I chose "heading": "The title or topic of a document, article, chapter, or of a section thereof," according to Wiktionary. Förbätterlig (talk) 13:46, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've modified your examples so the property value is just the part you want to highlight. However, it would probably be helpful if you could come up with examples that are based on actual existing Wikidata items - if the intent is to only use it in references then some existing items that have references that would need this would be helpful. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:35, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Since the difference is not visible on Wikidata, only on Wikipedia, I don't really know how to give meaningful examples here. I changed it to an explanation instead. Förbätterlig (talk) 11:42, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Yes, that looks much clearer, thanks! ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:04, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose use title (P1476) instead and store the appropriate quotation marks on language items instead. --- Jura 13:47, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jura1: I don't even know what that means. Isn't it easier and more intuitive to just have a separate property? Otherwise you'd risk having to use title (P1476) twice, referring to different things, instead of it just being obvious what every property refers to. Förbätterlig (talk) 07:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This proposal is just too incomplete to assess. Can you add three samples (as everybody else) to your proposal and indicate also the title value for each as well? This to make it easier to assess if and how these title values would be different. --- Jura 11:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jura1: I'm afraid I don't know how. In this article, the first source is currently stated as:

Brian Dillon, Hmmmm, Stylish, London Review of Books [date etc]

When it should be:

Brian Dillon, ”Hmmmm, Stylish”, London Review of Books [date etc].

Do you see what I mean? I don't know how to exemplify this any clearer. Förbätterlig (talk) 16:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I reformatted the sample above similar to what is found in other proposals. Did I get it right? Would you really want to repeat the same text several times with different quotes? Why wouldn't the module in Swedish Wikipedia add the correct quotes directly? --- Jura 12:39, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you just need "title of broader work"? --- Jura 13:01, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jura1: You are completely misunderstanding this proposal (which admittedly was originally confusing). The idea is to distinguish "heading" from "title" as structured data. Adding the quotation marks in various languages is an unstructured solution. If the two things are distinct (and Förbätterlig has presented good arguments to that effect here) then it should be a separate property. I don't think we have a suitable existing property, but if you can find one please suggest it. title (P1476) is not the solution here. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @ArthurPSmith: Possibly, but can you edit the proposal to what's intended (showing both "title" and "heading", ideally also "title of broader work" or "published in") and add two more samples? For many reference works, Wikidata considers the heading to be the title .. --- Jura 17:33, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
given the lack of samples => Not done --- Jura 20:01, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]