Wikidata:Property proposal/named by

named by edit

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

Done: named by (P3938) (Talk and documentation)

Description	person or organisation that coined the name; use as qualifier for P2561 and it's subproperties
Data type	Item
Template parameter	possibly others
Domain	anything that can be named, e.g. places, geographic features, products, astronomic objects, etc. Taxa should use the more specific property taxon author (P405)
Allowed values	people, groups of people, organisations, opinion poll (Q49958) and subclasses, unknown value.
Example	Rastorguyev Island (Q2581188) → Eduard von Toll (Q559426) Queensferry Crossing (Q8564816) → open access poll (Q7096311)
See also	named after (P138)

Motivation

Following this project chat discussion initiated by Amqui I realised we have named after (P138) to record what things are named after, but no equivalent for who did the naming. conferred by (P1027) was brought up in that discussion, but it would only work as a qualifier to named after (P138) and only where the naming was in honour of the person it was named after - which is not always the case even when named after a person. Thryduulf (talk) 11:04, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Following discussion below, this is proposed as a superproperty of taxon author (P405) which should continue to be used for taxon names. Thryduulf (talk) 14:31, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Support ChristianKl (talk) 12:12, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think that taxon author (P405) already covers this for taxa, but it sounds useful for other things. Best regards, Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 12:53, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I've had this in mind for years now. Thierry Caro (talk) 13:06, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Duplicates taxon author (P405). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @Pigsonthewing: I was not aware of that property, but this proposal is very significantly broader - taxon author (P405) could not be used for bridges, islands, asteroids, settlements, cars, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 13:45, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - I suggest that the proposal is changed to avoid the duplication. That is taxa should be excluded from the domain and instead be referred to use taxon author (P405). The examples and infobox parameters should be adjusted accordingly. I can support the proposal with these changes, but not as it is now. Best regards, Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 14:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Dipsacus fullonum: Done. Thryduulf (talk) 14:31, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - A better solution would be to broaden the scope of P405. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:58, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- taxon author (P405) can simply be a subproperty. After this property is created we can have a request for deletion that suggests to transfer the data from taxon author (P405) to this. Cases like this also make me thing that a more formal process for changing existing properties might be valuable. ChristianKl (talk) 16:49, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - Creating a new property, with the same data-type, transferring data, and deleting the first would be a ridiculous waste of effort. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:32, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - @ChristianKl: Why would we want to delete taxon author (P405) afterwards? If we wanted that, it was better and simpler not to create a new property first, but just change the scope for taxon author (P405). But taxon author (P405) is used for a very special case of naming: giving scientific names to taxa and I see no problem in keeping it seperate. Best regards, Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 14:16, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Further objection: This is also redundant to having a qualifier on official name (P1448); on Queensferry Crossing (Q8564816), one of the examples given above, that's determination method (P459), but more usually it would be author (P50). Note that many items have more than one name; sometimes even in a single language. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:38, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Pigsonthewing: I disagree. author (P50) is for the creator of a written work. It would be misleading to call a person or organisation who names an object for an author. Best regards, Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 14:29, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - They are the author of the name; unequivocally. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:42, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      - Not always. If I pick the name from a shortlist provided by somebody else I am the person who names the object, but I am not the author of the name - the person who thought of the name is. If I name a new building "Pigsonthewing House" I don't think I'd get very far claiming to be the author. Additionally, using author (P50) for anything other than a human (as is required for a "named by" property) and/or using it on anything other than a work would violate at least 3 and in some cases 4 of that property's constraints. See below for discussion of using this property as a qualifier. Finally, although "author" is tenuously OK in some cases for English I strongly suspect that this will not be the case in all languages. Thryduulf (talk) 22:11, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Looks fine now, so no more complains :-) Best begards, Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 14:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support As the initial proposer, I support this. I needed it for islands, but it will also be very useful for asteroids among many other things. Thanks, Amqui (talk) 16:13, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Useful property for many places in the American West, where the "namer" is known. - PKM (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Given that our items are not about a specific name but about the entity behind the name, how about making this a qualifier for Property:P2561 and subproperties? ChristianKl (talk) 14:39, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- It would need to work for all name properties as name (P2561) notes that a more specific property should be used where available. It would work for official name (P1448) but would it for all types of name? I note that named after (P138) is generally not used as a qualifier? There should be no barrier to using this as a qualifier where appropriate though. Thryduulf (talk) 22:11, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think all name properties should subclass the general name property. I do see that named after (P138) doesn't always get used as a qualifier but I don't think that's optimal. ChristianKl (talk) 09:46, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - That's a very good comment, I often added "named after" directly as a property and not as a qualifier, but that makes more sense for both "named after" and the new "named by" to be used as qualifiers for "name" and other more precise properties because the item is about the object/concept, not the name of it, and can have more than one name, in different languages, which wouldn't make sense then to add "named by" for the English name, maybe the same object as a different name in another language that is not "named after" that other object. For example, an island in Northern Canada may have an English name "named after" somebody and "named by" somebody we know, but at the same time it can have a name in Inuktitut. Somebody reading Wikidata in Inuktitut would see the Inuktitut name and a "named after" property that makes no sense. I think we should make recommended uses of those properties more known to avoid this. Thank you, Amqui (talk) 15:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Also: "originator of name"? --Fractaler (talk) 13:59, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I see value in creating this property. YULdigitalpreservation (talk) 14:07, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Should we specifically exclude people from this property, I mean excluding that we use that property to say that somebody is "named by" his parents? Amqui (talk) 15:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In most cases I don't expect that someone would enter into Wikidata that a person is named by his parents. On the other hand naming can get quite complex. There are titles, some people have "spiritual names", there are artists names and if you move outside of the west things get even more complicated. ChristianKl (talk) 19:25, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

People can also be named by themselves, by a single parent (I'm sure I've read of at least one person called e.g. Joe by their mother and e.g. Eric by their father), adoptive parents, by grandparents, by siblings, by friends/family (especially when nicknames become the common name and/or taken as their formal name), by agents (for stage names) etc. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that some people consider a person to be named by the vicar who christens them (or equivalent in other religions), and this is in addition to what ChristianK mentions. Thryduulf (talk) 22:01, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the description to make this property a qualifier. Does someone object to that? ChristianKl (talk) 12:15, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf, YULdigitalpreservation, Fractaler, PKM, Pigsonthewing, Dipsacus fullonum: Done ChristianKl (talk) 22:11, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]