Wikidata:Property proposal/préposition

preposition

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Place

   Not done

Description	preposition commonly used in this language to this place
Data type	Monolingual text
Domain	human settlement (Q486972)
Allowed values	en/à/au/aux/in/in the/[other preposition existing in languages]
Example 1	Arles (Q48292) → en [fr]
Example 2	Cuba (Q241) → à [fr]
Example 3	Portugal (Q45) → au [fr]
Example 4	Marquesas Islands (Q172697) → aux [fr]
Example 5	United States of America (Q30) → in the [en]
Expected completeness	always incomplete (Q21873886)

Motivation

In itself, few interest, but this property would greatly help build and write automated French sentences/descriptions for Qid like "église en Arles" / "aéroport aux États-Unis" / "cathédrale au Wisconsin", etc Bouzinac (talk) 21:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

VIGNERON
Ayack
Benoît Prieur
Ash Crow
Tubezlob
PAC2
Thierry Caro
Pymouss
Alphos
GAllegre
Jean-Frédéric
Manu1400
Marianne Casamance
Nattes à chat
Pierre André
Bouzinac
Jsamwrites
Baidax
LearnKnowGive1
Mathieu Kappler
Daieuxetdailleurs
Archives nationales DJI
Jmax
LearnKnowGive1
Koxinga
Maxime
Framawiki
Legonin

Notified participants of WikiProject France

•  Oppose This may be better placed on lexemes (senses of lexemes?) for those place names. Mahir256 (talk) 04:44, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

  Can you mix lexemes and Qid inside a sparql ? How to show in a sparql both https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Lexeme:L22294 and People's Republic of China (Q148) ? Beyond countries, has all cities/departement a lexeme ? Bouzinac (talk) 05:53, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

  @Bouzinac: This SPARQL query gets all countries with their French lexemes in Wikidata so far. It would be great to add more lexemes of course! ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:10, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

  Hi ArthurPSmith (talk • contribs • logs), thanks, looks promising. How would you add P5185 to this list ? https://w.wiki/Qa8 If okay, then i'll switch this proposal to lexemes. Well, there would be different french prépositions : du/de la/des/d' <> en/à/au/aux ... ==> Ambassade de l'Argentine en France Bouzinac . I somehow need to store these rules to help automate french descriptions (talk) 19:20, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

• Many Thanks! Bouzinac (talk) 19:20, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

•  Comment Can be relevant for other languages than French (a rare example for Czech - "v Česku"/"na Slovensku"). Which would probably help Abstract Wikipedia generate content. --Matěj Suchánek (talk) 11:45, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
•  Comment @Bouzinac, Mahir256, Matěj Suchánek: we could call it "preposition for locative" (Q202142) and use for which the usage rules have been defined on property talk. Initially this may just be French, Czech. Even in English, it could be convenient to store "in the" ←→ "in" somewhere. --- Jura 03:50, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

  Do you think monolingual text is appropriate? Shouldn't it be wikibase-form? --Matěj Suchánek (talk) 09:34, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

  • I hadn't commented on that aspect, as I'm not really convinced by either approach. Obviously, somehow anything should also be available on L-entities, but for French, it would mean that many place names would need to be created as lexemes merely to store this (which isn't a problem as such).
  • In the meantime, it occured to me that we could store it directly as form, e.g. [1]. This would also simplify translations to languages like Latin or Polish where there is a distinct form for locative. --- Jura 09:47, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

    I meant that items would link to forms, instead of text (as promoted by the examples above). But obviously, I missed the point that a preposition itself might not be very useful without the form of the word (considering in other languages). --Matěj Suchánek (talk) 09:55, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

    • Good point, that would be a option #4. I experimented with generational suffix (P8017) doing that. I found adding values isn't easy (was that with QS?) --- Jura 10:03, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

So, you would have a multilingual property, say,

• Czech Republic (Q213)(new préposition property)'lang:fr'"en"
• Czech Republic (Q213)(new préposition property)'lang:cz'"v"
• Slovakia (Q214)(new préposition property)'lang:fr'"en"
• Slovakia (Q214)(new préposition property)'lang:cz'"na"
• Portugal (Q45)(new préposition property)'lang:fr'"au"
• United States of America (Q30)(new préposition property)'lang:en'"in the" Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 21:34, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

•  Support every time I need to add "the" to country names, I think we should have some explicit solution for this. My order of preference is:

a. approach #3 (additional forms on the lexeme for the country name, requires no new property)

b. approach #2 (a statement on the lexeme of the country name, probably with form-datatype)

c. approach #4 (a form-datatype property on items for countries, similar to generational suffix (P8017)))

d. approach #1 (a monolingual string property on items for countries)

Preferred property label is "preposition for locative" for (b, c, d).

As we don't have multi-lingual datatype, I didn't add that, but several statements with monolingual-datatype make it multilingual.

Any solution is better than the status quo. @Bouzinac, Mahir256, Matěj Suchánek:. --- Jura 14:04, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

d. (#1) is least preferred by me as well. I'd happy if there was a disscusion with Wikidata community / lex. data sub-community about the rest. --Matěj Suchánek (talk) 11:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

•  Oppose the idea is great but the proposal is badly written. It would be better on Lexemes (and yes, on Senses of Lexemes) and for all languages (no reason to limit to French). But indeed there is a need that is worth solving. PS: as always for natural languages, rules are quite complicated ; for instance, with your first example: « en Arles » is common but considered as archaic and/or regional (and dependant of the context, is it Arles as the city strico sensu or Arles more lato sensu? in the second case « en » is more common/acceptable), « à Arles » is perfectly correct. PPS: maybe this is something more suited for the future Wiki of functions. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 09:25, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

  Semblerait effectivement que "à Arles" soit correct.--Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 19:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

•  Oppose I support using lexemes for place names. Finnish language uses conjugations and postpositions to express locative. Conjugations to/from would also be needed, for example. – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) (talk) 14:09, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Clear opposition. JesseW (talk) 19:17, 18 March 2021 (UTC)