Wikidata:Property proposal/runner-up

Runner-up edit

Not done

Description	person or team runner-up in a sports event
Represents	runner-up (Q3275569)
Data type	Item
Template parameter	"Runner-up", for instance in en:template:infobox Tennis Grand Slam events
Domain	human (Q5) or association football club (Q476028) or other types of player or team
Allowed values	human (Q5) or association football club (Q476028) or other types of team
Example	Runner-up of UEFA Euro 2016 (Q189571) → France national association football team (Q47774)
Planned use	On most sports events where victory is decided in a final game

Motivation

Right now, sports events allow for only two types of players: "winner" and "participants". It would be nice to add a runner-up property. Maybe in the future, we can also add a "Semi-finalist" or a "Quarter-finalist" property". --Wallerstein-WD ^talk 14:51, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

@AmaryllisGardener: wallerstein-WD seems to have overwritten your proposal rather than writing a new one - what should we do? (feel free to delete this in a revert if that's the choice) ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:38, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@AmaryllisGardener: I'm so sorry for overwriting your proposal. I will try to restore it. Wallerstein-WD (talk) 21:54, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Both David (talk) 15:09, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per earlier proposal for the same thing. I oppose for the same reason, that we shouldn't have separate properties for each finish position, but instead use ranking (P1352) as a qualifier for each participant to indicate their ranking. Josh Baumgartner (talk) 18:09, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Joshbaumgartner --Pasleim (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Just use ranking (P1352) as a qualifier to participating team (P1923). See how I did it d:Q23756432#P1923 and d:Q48432#P1923. Xaris333 (talk) 21:00, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Ranking and runner-up are not the same thing. How would you consider semi-finalists at Wimbledon? 3rd ex-aequo? Some sports events, such as races, have rankings. Some other, such as tennis tournaments or world cups, have runner-ups, semi-finalists, quarter-finalists, etc. 24.189.95.133 17:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

semi-finalists at Wimbledon are not runners-up. Some tournaments, have final rankings, some not. Some have ranking only for winner and runner-up, some have ranking for first four. For example, 2018 FIFA World Cup (Q170645) has Third place play-off. So we will know the 1st, the 2nd, the 3rd and the 4th place teams. But we will not know which team would be in 5th place (it would be one of those 4 which eliminated at quarterfinal, but we would not know which one). There is ranking only for 4 first team. For, UEFA Euro 2016 (Q189571) there wasn't third place play-off so we don't know which team is 3rd and 4th. At 2016 Summer Olympics (Q8613) we had ranking for all countries that won a medal 2016 Summer Olympics medal table (Q26214767)... So with ranking (P1352) we can show these informations for the participated that took a final place. Xaris333 (talk) 18:45, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Xaris333: In cases where there is a notable title awarded that is not able to be expressed as a ranking, instead just use award received (P166):

⟨ France national association football team (Q47774)  

 ⟩ award received (P166) ⟨ UEFA 2016 runner-up ⟩

Josh Baumgartner (talk) 20:07, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshbaumgartner: Why you are telling that to me? :) Xaris333 (talk) 20:13, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Got you confused with the previous signature. Josh Baumgartner (talk) 21:00, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is not correct that there is no final ranking at e.g. the FIFA World Cup. The Official Report gives at p.151 an official ranking of all 32 participating teams. Steak (talk) 18:32, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose These properties (perhaps unnecessarily) have inverses, so we have participant in (P1344) / participant (P710) and winner (P1346) / victory (P2522). Perhaps this runner-up would also get an inverse, and it's getting complicated. It's bad enough already with the participant/winner split, since on items like Wladimir Klitschko (Q18797) the events are separated into two blocks, which seems artificial. Ghouston (talk) 08:45, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coming from a background of writing about tennis in the German wikipedia, I agree with a lot of things said above. On a side note, I agree that the separation between participant in (P1344) and winner (P1346) seems odd and unnecessary, as we may be able to describe the winner of an event by winner (P1346) with a respective qualifier. However, it is absolutely correct and at core of this request that ranking (P1352) in its current form does not provide what's required as not all sports results can be described by numbers - see comments by the IP and Xaris333 (https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Wikidata:Property_proposal/runner-up&diff=prev&oldid=698710665). My suggestion would be to allow certain items to be put into ranking (P1352) like "Winner", "Runner-up", "Semi-Finalist", "Quarter-Finalist", "Round of 16", "Round of 32",... most of which would need Qs to be created. Looking forward to your comments.--Mad melone (talk) 12:50, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think a single property like ranking (P1352) can hold both integers and Q items. Isn't the runner-up rank 2, and the losing semifinalists rank 3 equal? Ghouston (talk) 01:38, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support In chess (Q718), for example, the runner-up of some chess tournament (Q2210277) is qualified for next another chess tournament. In association football (Q2736) in Europe the runner-up team may qualify to UEFA Champions League. So it's important to know the runner-up. --Brateevsky (talk) 19:38, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]