Wikidata

Wikidata:WikiProject Association football/Discussion about properties/Competitions

< Wikidata:WikiProject Association football‎ | Discussion about properties

Structure edit

My suggestions about competitions structure (with all possible competitions).


 
 
 
{{{association football competition (Q34186974) }}}
 
 
 

}}

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

}}

 
 
 
 

{{{national association football competition (Q34548322) }}}

 
 
 
 

{{{international association football competition (Q34548368) }}}

}}

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

}}

{{{association football league (Q15991303)}}}{{{national association football cup (Q34262376)}}}{{{league cup (Q1824674)}}}{{{national association football supercup (Q34262807)}}}

 

{{{international association football clubs competition (Q34548345)}}}

 

{{{international association football national teams competition (Q34542827)}}}

}}

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

}}

 

{{{international association football clubs cup (Q34542757)}}}

 

{{{international association football clubs super cup (Q34542788) }}}

}}

Then:

Properties edit

Properties that all competitions must have or must not have.

Useful examples: Wikidata:WikiProject Association football/Discussion about properties/Competition example

instance of (P31) edit

No. Use subclass of (P279).

Discussion:

P641 edit

sport (P641)

association football (Q2736) or women's association football (Q606060)

Problem:

Should we use an item "men's association football"? They are the same sports, only the gender is different. Is it OK to use association football (Q2736) for all men competitions/seasons/clubs and women's association football (Q606060) for all women competitions/seasons/clubs?

Discussion:

It's a good solution. Xaris333 (talk) 08:25, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@MisterSynergy:: What about female football teams?

and

(or women's sports (Q920057)?)

(or national sports team (Q1194951)?)

We also have women's national association football team (Q23905105) and national under-19 association football team (Q23901137) (they are using them with instance of (P31)). I think we don't need them, if the above structure is correct. Xaris333 (talk) 13:23, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"national team" is not a competition class and such items should thus not be used with P2094. They better fit with P31. "women's association football" and "U19" are fine for P2094. —MisterSynergy (talk) 16:12, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@MisterSynergy: What about national association football team (Q6979593)? Xaris333 (talk) 16:38, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, full example. (Btw. you don't need to ping me here)

This would basically do the job, maybe some things can still be optimized. Men's teams would take a P2094 new value item "men's association football", which is completely symmetrical to women's association football (Q606060). We should also consider to make an “Open age” item analogous to under-19 sport (Q21193184) that subclasses open (Q2735683). —MisterSynergy (talk) 17:19, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why not

What is that that show us that is better to use Q6979593 with P31? And why not to use with P31 women's association football team (Q28140340)? I just want to realize the difference. In my point of view is better to use association football club (Q476028) with P31 to all football teams (national, non national, men, women, young). I have made an example page with all possible cases Wikidata:WikiProject Association football/Discussion about properties/Team example. Maybe help us. Xaris333 (talk) 17:55, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A key aspect here is that all kinds of teams/players/clubs/competitions/etc. are about the same type of sport, which is association football (Q2736). No matter whether you look at open age men's/women's, or any gender’s age group association football, there is only one set of rules, and a distinct set of required skills for success in this type of sport. Nevertheless there is a need to define competition classes in almost all types of sports due to intrinsic physiological differences between certain groups of humans (e.g. women vs. men, young people vs. old people, heavy people vs. light people, etc). This way, one enables participation of sportspersons that would otherwise not have any chance to compete at the highest level. The competition class in fact defines who is eligible to participate in a given competition, mostly based on physical properties such as age, gender, and body mass (not in association football); in some types of sports, equipment also plays a role, which is not the case for association football. If we now look at national teams, we realize that one does not simply become eligible to play in such a team by a given physical constitution. You need to qualify yourself by superior performances. "National teams" are therefore not special competition classes, and P2094 can’t be used.
On the P31 relation: national association football team (Q6979593) is a subclass of association football club (Q476028), thus it is implicitly also an instance of association football club (Q476028). Assume you have a national team item with P31:Q6979593, you can query for ?item wdt:P31/wdt:P279* wd:Q476028 to find this item—all instances of association football club (Q476028) subclasses are also included in the result. I would expect national team items to be considerably different from club-level teams, thus a distinction in P31 sounds reasonable. I would also like to emphasize that right now I see need for not more than association football club (Q476028) and national association football team (Q6979593) as P31 relations on team items, regardless of gender and age.
—MisterSynergy (talk) 18:31, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I have understand. Another problem is "men's association football" item. Do we really need that? We now have association football (Q2736) and women's association football (Q606060). These item had links to wikipedia articles. The first one is about association football and the second is specific about women association football. By creating "men's association football", will never had a link to wikipedia article, since that subject is cover by association football (Q2736). And association football (Q2736) will never be instance of an item because every item is either "men's association football" or women's association football (Q606060). Why not to use that item like association football club (Q476028) and national association football team (Q6979593)? If an item is about women team, then competition class (P2094) --> women's association football (Q606060). If it is about men, then nothing. You can query for item that are women (national or not) football teams or not (men football teams).
SELECT ?item
WHERE
{
  { ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q476028 }
  UNION
  { ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q6979593 }
  { ?item wdt:P2094 wd:Q606060 }  
}
Try it! 
SELECT ?item
WHERE
{
  { ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q476028 }
  UNION
  { ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q6979593 }
    MINUS { ?item wdt:P2094 wd:Q606060 }  
}
Try it!

The same logic is for age group. We don't need  "open age"  item either, since we have the other items (U21, U20 etc). If P2094 has no (age class) value, then is open age. Xaris333 (talk) 19:41, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The item "men's association football" does not need to have sitelinks, it can be a pure structural item. A symmetrical solution is preferable in this case, since formally there is no hierarchy between men's and women's competition class. The sitelinks of association football (Q2736) often cover both genders, thus it is not advisable to simplify it to the men's version at Wikidata. On the other hand I agree on the idea to skip "open age" competition classes. As the top tier class, this does not necessarily be added. —MisterSynergy (talk) 19:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Good. I have written all in Wikidata:WikiProject Association football/Discussion about properties/Team example. Please check it if it is all correct. Xaris333 (talk) 20:20, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fine with me. —MisterSynergy (talk) 20:34, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

inception (P571) edit

All competitions have date or point in time when was founded. Discussion:

event interval (P2257) edit

Discussion:

organizer (P664) edit

Discussion:

P17 and P2541 edit

For national competitions only. For international competitions we can use it for countries that host the competition. Some users suggest operating area (P2541). But P2541 if for organizations, not for an event. We need a property to show the place the competition taking place. For example,

⟨ LaLiga (Q324867)      ⟩ country (P17)   ⟨ Spain (Q29)      ⟩

: in that case the league take place in all the country.

: is correct because the event is happening in Spain. But we must show that is only about a local area of that country Community of Madrid (Q5756)

and what about UEFA European Championship (Q260858) or UEFA Champions League (Q18756)? They are taking place to many countries.

Discussions may help:

Discussion:

I make a list with all possible competition/cases we have in wikidata (maybe I don't know some of them). Please discuss the problem you may find. The problems are for national competitions. Remember that we are talking about the competitions, not about editions (seasons) of them.

(@Innocent bystander:, @Jura1:, @D1gggg:) since you comment in previous discussion)

1) national competitions that held all over the country

2) national competitions that held in a part of a country (local competitions)

3) international clubs competition that held all over a continent

4) international clubs competition that held of a part of a continents

or

I am not sure if in that cases we can use also P17. In Q1342576 are only 2 countries. In Q805073 are more than 2 countries involved.

5) international clubs competitions that held with teams of two or more continents (but not all over the world):

6) international competitions for national teams that held over a continent:

7) international competitions for national teams all over the world

or

8) Maybe for international competitions on national teams we can use P2541 to list all host country/countries using applies to part (P518) (or something else) and not the continent. For example:

Remember that UEFA Euro 2020 (Q373501) will not have one host country but 13 host countries.

Xaris333 (talk) 07:39, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Others edit

Others properties that may use on items: winner (P1346), official website (P856), league level below (P2500), league level above (P2499), league points system (P3195), qualifies for event (P3085), Commons category (P373), topic's main category (P910), has part(s) (P527) (edition number (P393) as a qualifier), broadcast by (P3301), sports league level (P3983) (with part of the series (P179) as a qualifier)

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