Wolfgang Fricke

Welcome to Wikidata, Wolfgang Fricke!

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Best regards! M2k~dewiki (talk) 15:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Items for ships

Hi Wolfgang Fricke,

Please see Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Ships#Where_to_enter_properties_"port_of_registry",_"home_port"_and_"country_of_registry". --- Jura 22:22, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Labels

Please be aware of Help:Label#Disambiguation_information_belongs_in_the_description. --Hjart (talk) 21:42, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Please stop vandalizing ship items

Please stop vandalizing ship items.--Hjart (talk) 17:15, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I am not vandalizing data! I only intended to change the Wikidata-Infobox (keeping the data) under the corresponding IMO number and afterwards referencing the Infobos under Danmark (ship, 1934) to this. This is the correct way how Wikidata data are handled for ships, because then the Infobox is only created and changed once even in case the ship has different names. You could have seen the results if you would have let me finalize the operation instead of disturbing it during intermediate steps!--Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 17:25, 25 November 2021 (UTC) Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 17:26, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Your "data model" among other downsides makes it horribly tricky to find the corresponding commmons categories when I have photos of ships. I'm definitely not a fan of it.--Hjart (talk) 17:37, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand. Both categories, that with IMO number and that with the ship's name and year, exist, both with Wikidata Infobox. Where is the problem? Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 17:46, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

I've tried to explain it to you before, but apparently you're still not getting it. IMO numbers as labels is basically a bad idea and I still consider what you're doing vandalizm. For example if I see a ship called "Adfines Sky" and I want find that name in wikidata, I'm out of luck. After you vandalized the item Adfines Sky (Q83631353) that's unfortunately no longer possible.--Hjart (talk) 18:11, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Regarding "Adfines Sky", which was later named "RF Marina" (there are categories for both names in Wikimedia), I had no problem to get a result (Q84178763) when entering the name in the search field of Wikidata - insofar I don't understand why you had no luck. Of course, a Wikimedia category appears, which is linked to the category Adfines Sky (ship, ...) as well as to the IMO number and, hence, to the corresponding Wikidata page. As mentioned before, this makes sense, as both, "Adfines Sky" and "RF Marina", are the same ship. Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 22:21, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Because the search box automatically finds possible options as I type, I very rarely need to click the button at the end of it to find what I need. But because the label of Category:Adfines Sky (ship, 2011) (Q84178763) has "CategorY:" in front of the actual name, I now do need to click it to find that item. Hjart (talk) 06:18, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand. If I input Adfines Sky either in the search box of Wikimedia or of Wikidata, I find the category Adfines Sky (ship...) immediately. Sometimes I add 'ship' to shorten the list of findings. No problem! Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 08:52, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi Wolfgang Fricke. I wanted to draw three things to your attention:

• You have been talking about "Wikidata-Infobox". Presumably that is some presentation of information from Wikidata on some client project. Please be aware that, while we want Wikidata to support client projects as fully as possible, we never do this my making the Wikidata representation worse. If a client infobox needs to present information in a specific way, you need to look at how that can be solved client-side, or with judicious improvements to Wikidata.
• You need to be careful about making any widespread changes here without appropriate consultation. If someone is raising objections (even if those objections are phrased over-aggressively), you need to stop and think, and seek third-party input.
• There is a thread at Wikidata:Administrators'_noticeboard#IMO_numbers_as_labels that would benefit from your input.

Cheers, Bovlb (talk) 21:39, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi Bovlb, thanks for the comment. I have given an answer to the last point. The ship "Adfines Sky" mentioned by Hjart is a good example how the system works in case of multiple names of the same ship. The Commons categories for two ship names, which can easily be found via Wikimedia and Wikidata search fields, are here:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Adfines_Sky_(ship,_2011), and

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:RF_Marina_(ship,_2011).

The Commons category above of the IMO number is here:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:IMO_9580986

where the Wikidata Infobox with data is associated. This is the common way of handling ship data in Wikimedia / Wikidata. Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 07:59, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Please note that humans just as frequently change names too, sometimes because of marriages, sometimes for other reasons. We record both current and previous names as well as their representations in other scripts on the same wikidata item, because after all it is the same human. Example: Anna Bloch (Q4766861). Hjart (talk) 06:52, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

The query

SELECT ?Danmark ?DanmarkLabel ?DanmarkDescription WHERE {
   SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
   ?Danmark wdt:P8047 wd:Q35.
 }

Try it!

currently finds ~700 ships registered in Denmark. The vast majority have actual names and some have good descriptions, which are very helpful for quickly understanding exactly which ship this is. Those that you have touched (currently ~15), only have labels saying "IMO xxxxxxx". Nothing that could possibly ring a bell to a normal human being. While your system may appear "logical" to you, it unfortunately ignores the needs of other wikidata users.--Hjart (talk) 10:20, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Hjart, please accept that it is not 'my system'. Others have introduced it before me, applying it many thousend times. I only follow this philosophy after having accepted it. Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 17:16, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Please stop accepting it. I really think it needs to be scrapped and reconsidered. Hjart (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

It was not right from you to delete the photo of "Elbe" from the Wikidata description! Shall I also speak of vandalism?

This is again an example where the label 'MOL Elbe' is misleading, because the ship has changed its name. Some data, i.e. the photo, does not refer to "MOL Elbe", but to the ship with IMO 8912247! Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 20:08, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Sorry about removing the image of MOL Elbe (Q86084829). The rest of your edits to that ship were destructive though. Ideally the item MOL Elbe (Q86084829) should display the ships current name, while previous names should be kept as aliases. Please note the identifier IMO ship number (P458). This is where the IMO number belongs. The IMO number does not belong in the label section. Please note that this identifier is displayed under "authority data" (or whatever it's called in your language) in the lower part of the infobox in commons:Category:IMO 8912247. Hjart (talk) 21:09, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I strongly recommend that you scrap the system you've been following and seek advice on how to design a better system over at Wikidata:Project chat.--Hjart (talk) 21:34, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

For me it is no problem if I am convinced of a better system. But I still don't understand the following:

1. Why should the last name be the best choice? Regarding the "MOL Elbe", it is not the current name as she was scrapped long ago. Sometimes a ship served long with a famous name and served the last years under another name for a different company. In extreme cases the name is changed when the ship is sold to the breakers - often simply deleting one or more letters. I cannot see any advantage to use such names in many cases.

Please see Help:Label, which explains labels and the purpose of them. You can also just use the name under which the ship is or was most commonly known and list less commonly used names as aliases. Please note that IMO numbers are not names and should never be used as labels.

What a mess for a data base!--Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 12:18, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I find it very usefull.--Hjart (talk) 15:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

An observation: Several users have placed the different names of a ship under the language of the respective home country - very strange.

Please see the item for the Danish capital Copenhagen (Q1748). It's spelled differently in various languages. Wikidata allows everyone to find exactly this item, regardless of how it's spelled in their particular language. This is one of the strengths of Wikidata.--Hjart (talk) 19:06, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

That is not what I meant. Some people assigned the different names to the respective language of the country of registry, which would be the case if you would use the label "Bremen" for German and "Regina Magna" for Greece. Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 12:16, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I do not understand what you mean by that. Give me an example please.--Hjart (talk) 15:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

2. When creating the Wikidata Infobox on the page of a category IMO ..., then the IMO number appears as label. This is systematic. I guess that more than one thousand Infoboxes were created for the categories inputted by myself, most of them automatically by a bot. Why is that done if it is not wanted? Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 17:06, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Can you please point me to an example? My guess is that this could very well be due to misunderstandings of the purpose of Wikidata.--Hjart (talk) 19:06, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

One example is (Q106318361), belonging to the ship Fort la Reine (ship, 1969), IMO 6815990. Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 22:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I think you should ask the bot operator why he's doing it like that. Please be aware though that the operator of this bot handles a lot of other jobs and may not be aware of everything the bot is doing.--Hjart (talk) 15:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC) Please also note that bots usually do very simple jobs. Getting the data in perfect shape requires human interaction. The label of Fort La Reine (Q106318361) should be changed to "Fort la Reine" and an meaningful description should be added, because otherwise it will not be usefull in a query.--Hjart (talk) 15:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Also please note that you have removed a lot of valuable data, which I really think should be restored.--Hjart (talk) 19:06, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the question where data belong to, I like to add that there is a field for the official name (P1448). Here several names can be put in, together with start and end dates, which is important for data not lasting over the whole life. Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 12:27, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Football stadiums are also frequently renamed. See for example Odense Stadium (Q1850346).--Hjart (talk) 15:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

The following query finds all items in wikidata with a IMO ship number (P458) claim:

SELECT  ?ship ?shipLabel ?shipDescription ?IMO_shipnumber WHERE {
   SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
   ?ship wdt:P458 ?IMO_shipnumber. }

Try it!

The query lists name, description and IMO number of each ship. Out of the currently ~49000 ships in the list, ~3500 has IMO xxxxxx labels and of those ~1600 doesn't even have descriptions. Please tell me that you can identify any of those 1600 ships without hitting them up in a different table.--Hjart (talk) 19:50, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Some comments have been added to the text above, as you did before. Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 12:28, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi Hjart, after our long discussion and after reading several discussions about IMO numbers and ship names and properties, I still think that using IMO numbers as labels is the right and logical way in the database. Therefore I will not correct the changes I made in this respect. However, I will restore descriptions and aliases (where different names are collected), which will take some time. Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 10:57, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Other wikidata users depend on the labels and descriptions etc in Danmark (Q286428), Skjoldnæs (Q12325488) and similar items. That's why I cannot allow you to replace them with IMO numbers. --Hjart (talk) 11:38, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Here you had destroyed all my data input, although I have changed nothing regarding IMO number: Q106317583 That is unfair and vandalism! Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 15:35, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I disagree. You removed a lot of valuable data and hardly input anything valuable. Hjart (talk) 16:06, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

That is not true. There were 6 entries, 4 of them data of the ship (P729, P176, P2043 and P18). The remaining two I just wanted to cancel. Stop destroying my data! Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 16:13, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I thought you referred to the ships I mentioned in the previous sentence. sorry. Hjart (talk) 16:18, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I hope you have not destoyed more data without looking what is behind the input! Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 17:37, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello Hjart, I hope that I have now corrected everything.

In the mean time I have discussed the item among others with Mike Peel, who participated in previous discussions about IMO numbers etc. It seems that some users prefer IMO numbers as labels, while others prefer ship names. Regarding 'which one', Mike Peel favoured the 'most famous one', which is somewhat arbitrary. I will in future not change existing labels and aliases, however include IMO numbers if they are missing (e.g. in the aliases) so that Wikidata sets can also be found when inputting IMO numbers. In principle, all names during the ship's life should be listed under 'alias', however, this might be a huge task. Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 11:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Merging, not deleting

Please use merge-function instead of deleting statements (e.g. you can try it at https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q83607134&action=history), this should be merged with Q6878940 Estopedist1 (talk) 08:38, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I found another example of you making this mistake at Category:Fernsea (ship, 1976) (Q115299105) please be careful not to make more work for others. BrokenSegue (talk) 16:55, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, which I actually do not unterstand. In case of FERNSEA I only deleted the erroneous category name containing the wrong year (1986 instead of 1976). Was that my mistake? Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 08:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

...before making another mistake, maybe we can look at the following example. I found in WikiMedia the WikiData box Q56327006 of BALTIC STAR. However, this should be a Wikimedia-category linked to the HELGOLAND which was later renamed BALTIC STAR. I think that the data of BALTIC STAR can be deleted, because the data of HELGOLAND are much more detailled. However, maybe this is a good example for merging the data. How can I proceed? Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 09:14, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

the thing you did that was wrong was leaving the item in this state. there should never be empty items like that. instead of blanking the item you should've merged it or requested deletion. BrokenSegue (talk) 18:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Actually I have problems to understand how linking works and where I can find examples or explanations. 95.116.73.97 10:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm not clear on what you mean about "how linking works". please be more specific. BrokenSegue (talk) 14:38, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant 'merging' Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 15:22, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Ah you want to look at Help:Merge and you probably want to install the gadget discussed in there. BrokenSegue (talk) 15:40, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I must confess that I do not really understand the help info. I will be more careful in future with the data. Wolfgang Fricke (talk) 10:34, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Automated report of empty item: Q84250446

Hello, an item that you have edited (and you are the only non-bot editor) is considered empty and will be deleted in 72 hours if it doesn't improve. Your automated cleaner, Dexbot (talk) 11:06, 9 February 2023 (UTC)