Kwamikagami

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--Ymblanter (talk) 19:32, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Automated report of empty item: Q110861862

Hello, an item that you have edited (and you are the only non-bot editor) is considered empty and will be deleted in 72 hours if it doesn't improve. Your automated cleaner, Dexbot (talk) 17:20, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Q601, Q604, Q611

Hello. Can you explain your reverts? Михаил Круглов (talk) 17:55, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, those are all rare symbols, used AFAIK only by individual people or otherwise not notable. (Actually, ⯱ is quite rare as well; it's only notable because it's in Unicode.) The remaining symbols are common, used for example in Astrolog, which has been the most popular astrological software since 1990. There are many other symbols for planetary bodies that we don't include on WD. Consider Q339 Pluto, which has 2 additional Unicode symbols that are more common than these that ones I removed, as well as several rare variants that are about as common as the ones I removed. Yet we don't bother to include any of those.

Specifically, for Q601 and Q604, [Haumea symbol (Seltzer, bold).svg] and [Makemake symbol (Seltzer, bold).svg] are used only by one person, Henry Seltzer. I only uploaded them to Commons because sometimes we want to mention rare symbols. They're not in common use like some of the alt symbols for Pluto that we don't include on WD. For Q611, [Eris eye of Providence symbol.svg] is used only by Zane Stein, again not at all notable. I forget who used [Eris circled K symbol.svg], but it's so rare that it's not mentioned on Zane's website, where he tries to list all the symbols being used. [Globus cruciger (fixed width).svg] isn't even a symbol for Eris, it's supposedly for the fictional planet Proserpina, which we don't even have a WD item for. (Or maybe for the fictional planet Kora, which is identified with Proserpina -- the rationale is rather murky.) One local school of astrology claims that Preserpina is really Eris, and thus not fictional, but that's the only connection.

If we're going to include vanishingly rare symbols, that are alternatives to common symbols, then really we should do the same for all the planets. There are probably a dozen symbols each for the Sun and Moon, but we don't bother with them because they're not something the average reader is going to care about. There are rare symbols for the other planets as well, but I don't see any benefit to adding them to WD.

Either way, I think we should either include all symbols for all bodies, even though practically no-one uses them (e.g. alt symbols for all 8 planets, Sedna, Orcus, Quaoar, etc), or pick just the most common. So far on WD, we've been using only the most common symbol, or in a few cases the two most common (e.g. Earth, Uranus, Pluto). Kwamikagami (talk) 20:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok. What about your symbols for Varda, Salacia, Io, Triton and other moons. Does they used anywhere? Let's delete them too? Михаил Круглов (talk) 22:13, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

I've confirmed these symbols with links to sources. You haven't confirmed your symbols with a single source.--Михаил Круглов (talk) 22:16, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

If you really want them, fine, go ahead and put them back -- you're correct that they are symbols for those objects. (Except for the symbol for the Earth, which is not really a symbol for Eris.) But, really, how many symbols do we want for each data item? And why not add rare variants to all objects? Kwamikagami (talk) 03:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Exactly! To avoid uncontrolled production of these symbols we should to follow the general WP guideline Wikipedia:WP:Notability (although, it mainly concerns the topics of articles, but it also can be applied here): "A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject."

I have cited sources where these symbols are used. Circled K symbol is used by Wikipedia:Sternberg Astronomical Institute ― this source is most notable. Other symbols were mentioned in sited books. This books has doubtful reliability, but they was added to Google Books and that means they are not a trash. And finally Zane's website... Well this is a site of a private person and its notability is negligible, but this man has some authority in astrology.

Can you confirm your symbols with any independent source? Михаил Круглов (talk) 16:38, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Those symbols are from Moskowitz, who created the Unicode symbols for the dwarf planets, apart from Varda, which is from Zane.

BTW, being on GBooks does not mean that the books are not trash. Though when it comes to astrology, that's not really the issue. It's more what has notable usage.

I agree with you though that usage by an astronomical institute is notable. I hadn't realized that. Please, if you discover other cases like that, please let us know. Kwamikagami (talk) 20:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I can't find any publications by Denis Moskowitz: neither articles, nor books. Nothing but his personal page. Athority of this person for WP isn't more than mine or yours. Seltzer and Zane have published numerous books in astrology. You should bring more solid evidence of notability of his creations. So far, your actions are a violation of the rule Wikipedia:WP:No original research. Михаил Круглов (talk) 17:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I still have a suspicion that you are that Moskowiz and you are using Wikipedia to promote your creativity.--Михаил Круглов (talk) 17:13, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

And by the way, what about that Eris symbol which you are thinking is a Proserpine symbol? Proofs, please.--Михаил Круглов (talk) 17:16, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Moskowitz's site is here: suberic.net/~dmm/astro/index.html. He's as notable as Zane. My contention was not that Zane was not notable -- he's fine for e.g. Varda, because his symbol for Varda is the most common -- but only that his symbol for Eris is far less common than others.

I can't prove he's not me, of course, any more than you can prove you're not Seltzer or Zane. But our interests do not match -- for example, I'm in linguistics, he's not.

The use of the globus cruciger for Proserpina is mentioned here (btm p. 5), with sources provided. Kwamikagami (talk) 18:20, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Your source says that globus cruciger is used to refer to Eris, although it is associated with Proserpine. It is the symbol of the same object. The symbol for a fictional planet named Proserpine is different: Astrological planet Proserpina.svg. Михаил Круглов (talk) 03:03, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

They are only the same object for schools of astrology that accept the identity of Proserpina as Eris. For those that don't, they are not the same object. So we can't say that the globus cruciger is an astrological symbol for Eris: it's a symbol for Proserpina, which some identify as Eris.

There is indeed another symbol for a planet "Proserpina". But I don't know whether it's the same object as this Proserpina -- I have seen no sources that say one way or the other. Do you have any sources that say? Kwamikagami (talk) 04:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I can tolerate when you are using Wikipedia to promote your creations, but the fact that you are simultaneously trying to destroy mentions of alternative options is a crime. According to Wikipedia:WP:NTEMP: "Notability is not temporary". Your actions remind me the plot of Orwell's '1984', when they were destroying all mentions of past events when the current situation had changed.--Михаил Круглов (talk) 03:12, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

First of all, I am not Moskowitz. I have created over 3,000 language articles (mostly stubs) on WP-en, and have updated all ≈ 7,000 ISO-language articles multiple times as Ethnologue updated their population figures. Moskowitz has no interest in linguistics, and I would not expect him to spend that much time on language articles. (Updating our articles to reflect 7,000+ updated references takes a lot of time!)

Secondly, I am not trying to "destroy" alternative options. I was merely trying to limit the selected image to the most common symbol for each object, or occasionally the two most common if two were approximately equally common (e.g. Uranus, Earth). I have not kept symbols where one is rare (e.g. Neptune). If you think that we should list all symbols, then that's a difference of opinion, not a conspiracy. I don't have a problem with adding additional symbols. However, if we go in that direction, then I think we should be consistent: we should add alternative symbols for all the planets, not just for 3 or 4.

For example, consider Q525 (the Sun). There have historically been dozens of symbols for the Sun. Should we list them all? How many would be enough? How many too much? If you only accept 6 symbols for the Sun, are you committing the crime of "destroying" the other symbols?

I have uploaded a lot of symbols to Commons that I have not used on WD. Far from trying to "destroy" them, I am making them accessible. I have not used them on WD because they are not the most common/notable symbol for the object. It's rather like choosing a single photograph: that's not "destroying" the other photographs, it's just that we can't use all of them. Kwamikagami (talk) 04:38, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Your comprehension of the essence of the Wikidata is incorrect. Did you ever read the rules? In Help:Statements is written: "If an item by nature can have properties with multiple values, it is perfectly acceptable to add each of these multiple values." Михаил Круглов (talk) 03:57, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

And I said I'm fine with that. My question to you was why you don't attempt consistency. Kwamikagami (talk) 04:00, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not against uniformity, but why did you decide that your opinion is so notable, that only you can form this uniformity? Now you are trying to establish this "consistency" by wiping info about alternative options, and this not only contradicts the rules of Wikipedia and Wikidata, but it is a dangerous behavior itself. Uniformity is only possible in a totalitarian society, which (I hope) Wikipedia will never become. Михаил Круглов (talk) 12:52, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

As I said, if you want to put those symbols back in, go ahead. But you don't want to do that, that would be too simple. No, you don't want a solution, you want to pretend this is the rise of the Third Reich. In other words, you're a troll. Kwamikagami (talk) 13:12, 6 May 2023 (UTC)