Wikidata talk:WikiProject Media Representation/Ethnic Portrayals

Items in need of additional discussion or opinions - Ethnicity related tests

In this section you can discuss items where you are unsure of the application of Ethnic Portrayal-related tests. If there is already a statement/evaluation that you would like to challenge, please ping the originator of the statement/evaluation. You may add nature of statement (P5102) disputed (Q18912752) or dubious (Q104378399) as a qualifier to the statement in question. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 12:13, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Aladdin (Q215518)

@Wallacegromit1: First: Thank you for edit concerning the Riz-Test: I was also wondering about how to evaluate Jasmine, but I've not been sure (and I tend to judge in favour of the film in dubious cases). With the source you provided I think we can just delete my initial evaluation.

I'm thinking about the application of Shukla Test (Q104144383) to films that are set in "a faraway place": What should be an ethnic minority in these cases:

• The ethnic minority in the producing country (so if set in Arabia Arab characters would still be counted as ethnic minority characters if the film is produced in the US (for example))
• The ethnic minority of the place where the film is set (so if set in Arabia Arab characters would not be counted as ethnic minority characters)
• The ethnic minority in the film (so if a film is set in Arabia and the majority of characters is white, Arab characters would be counted as ethnic minority characters)

To be frank: my favourite is the first one. This seems to best capture the initial idea of the test (representation of ethnic minorities in (Hollywood) films). I don't think that the second is a good idea, as this would allow films with white main characters in Arab countries (for example) to pass without any of the Arab characters speaking to each other. (Maybe one could emphasize that they should not be from colonizing countries, but I don't know...). I'm a bit more sympathetic with the third one.

For now I let Aladdin pass: Q215518#P1552. Characters talk about love, dreams, their relationship and trust, power, wealth and poverty, making a living, administration, Aladdin and Jasmine, etc for at least 5 Minutes. What do you think? - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 10:31, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Valentina.Anitnelav:

Riz Test - Aladdin is a perfect case of nuance and subjective interpretation. Jasmine could be considered to be oppressed more by the patriarchy, rather than Islamic values alone. And many might consider her to be strong willed and full of agency regardless. This is one of those cases where the use of disputed (Q18912752) or dubious (Q104378399) is perfect, but we can put the passing as Deprecated Rank, as the passing is the interpretation. And if the film is taken at pure technicality alone, it does not pass.

Shukla Test - You are right! The first one is in keeping with the initial idea of the test. The ethnic minorities in the country/region of production will be counted towards the test. A film like The Farewell (Q60611804) passes the test, as it is produced in USA, even though it has a Chinese cast and language.

The second point will be incredible, as it would almost be a Double Pass Shukla Test. Let's take the example of The Last King of Scotland (Q176826), a British-German production taking place in Uganda, with a mostly Black cast, and some characters and actors that are also ethnic minorities in Uganda itself. However, the film passes the Shukla test regardless of the ethnic minorities in Uganda. (FYI: I do not remember if the movie actually passes the Shukla test, as most of the conversations happened with the White characters, may need to look it up.)

For the third point - A movie like The Darjeeling Limited (Q658944), an American produced movie, which takes place in India, with a majority Indian supporting cast and only has three white lead actors, would not pass the test unless the Indian characters talk to each other about something other than their own or the leads race. If it was flipped, an Indian production taking place in America, and white characters talk to each other about something other than race for more than 5 minutes, it would pass the test.

Overall, the first point surpasses the other points. Thanks for the clarification question! Wallacegromit1 (talk) 14:28, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I agree. I readded this claim with reason for deprecated rank (P2241) cannot be confirmed by other sources (Q25895909) (should there be other sources backing up this claim, we may set the claim to normal rank, again). - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 14:39, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

The Lion King (Q36479)

I currently rated this as having no black woman and less than two ethnic minority characters. As to anthropomorphic animals I would only take those into account that are explicitly characterized as belonging to an ethnic minority (by being said so, behaviour or accent). I also would only take those minorities into account that are related to a real-world minority (one could think of the Hyenas as belonging to an in-narrative ethnic minority). I identified ethnic minorities with respect to the producing country (in this case: the USA). With this in mind there is only one character that I would identify to belong to an ethnic minority: Rafiki (Q326075). There maybe some people who think about this differently - so I put this up here with my reasoning. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 12:23, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Valentina.Anitnelav:

For anthropomorphic animals or non-human characters, the actors who voiced or played them will be counted towards the score. This is how they were counted here Next Bechdel, in the notes. As many non-minority actors could also do the accents and behaviour. Wallacegromit1 (talk) 14:34, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Wallacegromit1: Thanks. I agree with this for characters where the ethnicity is not expressed. Do we still count characters as ethnic-minority characters if they are presented as such, even if they are played/voiced by a white? I think, for example, of Prince Faisal in Lawrence of Arabia who is played by Alec Guiness. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 15:37, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Valentina.Anitnelav:

For Live-Action & Animation - In the spirit of the test, a ethnic-majority actor/voice-actor, inhabiting/voicing a ethnic-minority character will not be considered for the test. Alec Guiness will not be considered in Lawrence of Arabia.

Exception - If the same actor/voice-actor, plays or voices multiple characters in the Film/TV, then it could be considered. We can call it the "Apu Clause", and add dubious (Q104378399). Examples include, characters in the TV series The Simpsons (Q886), or multiple genders in The Nutty Professor (Q936576), for gender based tests. A unique example would be Edna Mode (Q2490541) in the The Incredibles (Q213326), which will not be considered for ethnic or gender tests, but in Incredibles 2 (Q24832112) she will, as the voice actor did a few more voices in the second film.

Thanks. That makes sense. Now I have to recapitulate my edits for these tests... Should we make this clear in the test description? - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 14:13, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@Wallacegromit1: I added the additional clause to the Waithe test and the Shukla test. Now I'm thinking about the Riz test and Aladdin (Q215518). Most (all?) the Muslim characters are voiced by white actors. If we don't consider them we would end up with Q102182612. But there is at least one source that considers them and rates this film as Q104145006. Should we exclude the Riz-Test from our additional clause? Should we use an additional qualifier that makes it explicit that also Muslim characters voiced by white actors where considered? Something along the lines of "considering also Muslim characters voiced by non-Muslim ethnic-majority actors"? -Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 11:55, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Caché (Q383173) and the Riz test

I find this film very hard to rate. The problem is Muslim character/s are talking about, the victim of, or the perpetrator of terrorism or extreme violence (Q102182821). One could argue that Majid is the victim of psychological violence (performed by French character Georges Laurent, both by lying to his parents about Majid in the past and by accusing him of terrorizing him) and that he predominantly talks about the psychological violence/terror he is accused of by Georges Laurent (terrorizing his family by sending violent drawings). But I'm not sure if this is the kind of terrorism/extreme violence covered by Muslim character/s are talking about, the victim of, or the perpetrator of terrorism or extreme violence (Q102182821).

The decision is complicated by the fact that the film's main topic is the collective guilt that comes from colonisalism and that it refers to Paris massacre of 1961 (Q200472) and Iraq War (Q545449). This puts the character into the context of the cases of extreme violence/terrorism I'm certain the test should cover without the character itself actually being involved with it.

Currently I rated it as passing but I change my mind every other day so I would be glad about a second opinion. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 16:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I just realized that Majid's parents disappeared during the Paris massacre of 1961 (Q200472) which would make him an indirect victim of extreme physical violence. I noticed only today that the description of Muslim character/s are talking about, the victim of, or the perpetrator of terrorism or extreme violence (Q102182821) was broadened to include extreme violence quite general. If violence triggered by anti-Muslim sentiment should be included, too, this film should probably fail. But is this actually the case? - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 16:26, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Valentina.Anitnelav:

I have never seen this film, but have heard about it. You have given the film, passes the Riz Test with Dubious, which I think is perfect. However, if you feel the level of psychological violence is too directly or indirectly linked to Islam, I would say you can add in fails the Riz Test with Dubious. The Dubious should remain. Please also see if the criteria Muslim character/s are presented as a threat to a Western or non-Islamic way of life (Q102183028), is also being impacted in some way?

If violence triggered by anti-Muslim sentiment should be included - Is this shown to be directly related to Islam and the characters? Is it is Indirect, it may not apply.

@Wallacegromit1: I did not read the psychological violence as being linked to Islam directly but rather to the repression of colonial guilt. Muslim character/s are presented as a threat to a Western or non-Islamic way of life (Q102183028) is also an interesting question; as the character of Majid evocates guilt in the main character of Georges Laurent, also with respect to his life style (Georges Laurent became rather successful while Majid stayed poor) one could read it as a kind of threat to the legitimacy of the lifestyle. I would tend to say that this is not covered by Muslim character/s are presented as a threat to a Western or non-Islamic way of life (Q102183028), but here, again, it is a bit dubious.

The events of Paris massacre of 1961 (Q200472) rather provide the background of the story, they are not a part of the actual plot. They are mainly shown as related to colonialism, in my reading. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 13:46, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I should add that the character of Georges Laurent does certainly feel directly threatened by the violent drawings and the surveillance tapes of his home. But the sender is never revealed in the film. Georges Laurent accuses Majid and his son of sending the pictures and tapes, but the film does not frame these accusations as fair or justified. In the end this would be a threat to one family, not to Western lifestyle quite generally. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 14:00, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I think I will keep passes the Riz Test with Dubious. Multilayered films that open a wide room of possible interpretations and associations (also of threats) are difficult to rate. If keeping directly to the plot without thinking about associations the film allows and evocates I think the film passes. But, of course, this discussion may be reopened later. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 14:22, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Waithe Test Good Relatioinship

@Valentina.Anitnelav: Is there a way to show that a Black Woman, is not in a position of power, but is in a healthy relationship? As the point system does not allow for this value to be entered. Wallacegromit1 (talk) 05:31, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

@Wallacegromit1: This is true. One could create an item for the statement "At least one Black Woman is shown in a healthy releationship" and add it as a qualifier with complies with (P5009). - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 10:47, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Increase diversity in our Wikidata integrations research

Hello WikiProject Media Representation: Ethnic Portrayal editors!

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