Wikidata talk:Wikidata Lexeme Forms/Spanish

Ambiguous examples in verb template

@DemonDays64: the current examples in the verb template are pretty ambiguous – for example, once I start typing «cant» into the second field, the surrounding text is just «Yo … mucho.», which doesn’t tell me whether I’m supposed to turn this into «Yo canto mucho.», «Yo canté mucho.» or «Yo cantaba mucho.» In one case, two examples are even completely identical: Nosotros [cantamos] mucho. is first person plural present tense and preterite. The labels of each form can help resolve this ambiguity, but that assumes that the user of the tool knows the right grammatical terms; do you think you could expand the sentences a little more to make it clear which tense they represent, even without the placeholder word? (For example, in the German template for verbs, I included “today” and “yesterday” for present tense and preterite, and “suppose that” and “I thought that” for present and past subjunctive.) Also pinging Andreasmperu, creator of the other Spanish templates, in case she wants to help out here :) --Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 15:21, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

@Lucas Werkmeister: dang I hadn’t thought about that...I’ll fix them. With nosotros, for example, I’ll make it something like "Nosotros [cantamos]” + “hoy"/ “ayer”. Thanks, I’ll do that soon! DemonDays64 | Talk to me 15:35, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

@Lucas Werkmeister: see this revision—I changed the present indicatives to be more explicitly present tense and distinct. Any suggestions? If those are good, I'll do something similar to the other tenses. DemonDays64 | Talk to me 16:14, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

@DemonDays64: well, the examples should still work for other verbs as well, so I think especially the last one about Christmas songs went a bit overboard :D using «todos los días» for all six present tense forms should be fine, in my opinion (as long as the «yo»/«tú»/etc. is different, that’s not a problem). --Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 17:02, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

@Lucas Werkmeister: I guess my brain felt that unnecessary complication would help it be clearer for some reason XD I'll make it like that and then figure out the other ones. DemonDays64 | Talk to me 17:03, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

@Lucas Werkmeister: there, all done! I made them different from each other, and pretty clear about the tense it requires. I think that those are good enough to replace the confusing ones I made, but you might want someone else who is better at Spanish than me (I don't understand the nuances of past imperfect vs. preterite well) to look at those and ensure that they are clear for native speakers to use before spending the time to replace them. Thanks for maintaining this great tool! DemonDays64 | Talk to me 17:18, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

@DemonDays64: I’ve updated the template, thanks! --Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 00:20, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Some errors in "Verbo" template

@Lucas Werkmeister: Hello, I have detected some errors in the template of the verb forms, but I am not sure how I could modify it or request that it be changed. Would it be valid just to modify it in Wikidata:Wikidata Lexeme Forms/Spanish?

As an example, the form 20 (cantando) should only be gerund (Q1923028). In fact, the present participle (present participle (Q10345583)) does not exist in Spanish, there is only one participle (past participle (Q12717679), normally called just as participle (Q814722) since there is only one) that would be a new form that has not yet been added (cantado). --Hameryko (talk) 15:04, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hameryko: feel free to edit the template on the wiki page; when it’s done, ping me, and I’ll update the tool accordingly. (And then Someone™ will have to update all the existing lexemes, I’m afraid. Changes to the tool will only affect new lexemes.) In the meantime, let’s CC DemonDays64, who created the template, and also Andreasmperu, who created the other Spanish templates. Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 17:34, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Lucas Werkmeister: Thanks. I did the following changes in the "Verbo" template:

• Form 20, fixed with correct grammatical feature for "cantando"
• Form 21, new form added (cantado)
• Forms 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13; new grammatical feature added (grammatical mood: indicative (Q682111))
• Forms 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19; new grammatical feature added (grammatical mood: indicative (Q682111))
• Forms 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 and 27; new forms added (future tense (Q501405))
• Forms 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33; new forms added (simple conditional (Q65211247))
• Forms 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40; new forms added (present subjunctive (Q3502553))

About the existing lexemes, I think I have already changed the grammatical feature on all of them. (https://w.wiki/4Rmv). --Hameryko (talk) 03:01, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

@Lucas Werkmeister: One of the verb tenses that remain to be added have two possible forms for each set of grammatical features. Would it be valid if I put it in the template as follows?

• Para que yo [cantara] o [cantase]
• Para que tú [cantaras] o [cantases]
• etc.

--Hameryko (talk) 19:11, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hameryko No, that wouldn’t work as such. If the second form exists for some verbs, then you can specify it like Para que yo [cantara/cantase], and users can put one or more forms into the input field, separated by slashes (up to the user) – you can see some examples of that in the German templates. (This is always supported – putting a slash into the placeholder in the template just serves as a hint or reminder to the user that it might be appropriate for this particular form.) If it’s a regular thing for all verbs, then I’d consider modelling them as separate forms, with some grammatical feature items (could be Spanish-specific items) to distinguish between the two. Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 19:18, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hameryko I’ve started applying your changes now, but noticed that the subjunctive forms use both present subjunctive (Q3502553) and subjunctive (Q473746). Isn’t that redundant? present subjunctive (Q3502553) is already a subclass of subjunctive (Q473746), so I’d think just present subjunctive (Q3502553) is enough. Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 18:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

@Lucas Werkmeister: Hello. About the first issue, this double form (cantara/cantase) is something regular that happens for all verbs, but I think with the slash could work (Para que yo [cantara/cantase]). About the second issue, I only followed the scheme of indicative forms in which the grammatical tense and the grammatical mood are indicated separately. But I agree that using present subjunctive (Q3502553) and subjunctive (Q473746) together is redundant and you can use only the first one. Thanks!. --Hameryko (talk) 22:21, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Hameryko Alright, I’ve removed subjunctive (Q473746) from the template. Do you want to add the cantara/cantase tense before I update the tool? Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 17:28, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

@Lucas Werkmeister: I just added the tense and some new ones that were also missing, so they can be added in the update. --Hameryko (talk) 14:41, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

@Hameryko Thanks. Can you maybe rephrase the imperative sentences so that the placeholder isn’t at the beginning? (Maybe with por favor at the beginning?) Otherwise, users might write the word in uppercase because it’s at the beginning of a sentence, even though the lexeme should actually be in lowercase. Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 16:42, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

@Lucas Werkmeister: Done, I added "Por favor," at the beginning. --Hameryko (talk) 10:07, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Hameryko Alright, I’ve updated the template in the tool. Thanks! Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 19:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)