Topic on User talk:VIGNERON

Hi! Excuse me for writing in English, but my (written) French has to be revised. It was a pleasure to meet you at Wikimania in Stockholm! Now I come for this reason: a user from Chechen Wikipedia (ce.wiki), Takhirgeran Umar, has just ask me how to display French departments in a newly created template, ce:Кеп:НБМ-Франци. I thought it was a simple task, then I had a look at some items (e.g. Abbaretz (Q1001990), Hazebrouck (Q11131)) and I realised there was a problem :) I also had a quick look at Wikidata talk:WikiProject France and I saw a huge amount of discussions citing located in the administrative territorial entity (P131), in particular the interesting "Surveillons les cyrillographes" about users from Belarus not understanding the modelling of located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) in French administrative unit. Given these premises, I have to ask you two questions:

1. (problem of modelling) could you explain me briefly which is the reason because of which French communes have in located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) not only the just-above administrative layer, the canton, but also arrondissements and departments (and not regions)? In Italy communes have in located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) only the province (e.g. Pisa (Q13375) located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) Province of Pisa (Q16244)) and then the province has located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) for the region (e.g. Province of Pisa (Q16244) located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) Tuscany (Q1273)). Isn't that system redundant?
2. (problem of the template) would you be able to find a user which can make the template read only the value of located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) which is instance of (P31) department of France (Q6465)? At the moment the template, as you can see e.g. in ce:Аббарес, reads all the three values of located in the administrative territorial entity (P131), how can we select the department only?

Thank you and excuse me for asking you to explain for the umpteenth time the same problem :( Bye!

Hi,

No problem, write in any language you want ;) It was also nice to meet and I'm sorry we didn't has time to talk more.

Now, for the nightmare of French Département... (no problem, I'm starting to getting good at explaining it and talking about it will maybe make me find the perfect solution).

Yes, there has been a lot of discussion and the perfect solution has not been found yet. There is many aspects in this problem, for instance, the administrative layers are not always transitive nor clusive (A is in B and B is in C but A is not in C !). Plus there is some popular and historic aspect, the Département are the most stable and the oldest still existing administrative unit in France. The most precise value of P131 if often the less known (even difficult to find references) and the newest one.

For the template, I'm not an expert in Lua but I think fr:Module:Adresse has the code you're looking for (it is made for adress of monument but it should work for commune of France too).

OK, I understand that there can be a problem of transitivity plus a historical problem; so probably this solution is the best at the moment.

In fr:Module:Adresse I can't see anywhere any mention of department of France (Q6465), so I'm not sure it can solve the problem of the template. I will have a look in the templates of fr.wiki in order to find the solution!

Not the best but probably the "less worst" solution ;)

Yes, the Adresse module works with a sub-module : fr:Module:Adresse/Formats which gives an explicit list of expected value (which is not the most elegant solution but at least it works and it won't break if the model change on Wikidata ;) ).

Since you know Italy, what do you think of that Special:Diff/1007870540?

OK, the explicit list of fr:Module:Adresse/Formats can work ;)

I think your edit on Rome (Q220) is surely correct. In Italy we have still a lot of work to do with adding information about previous administrative units (in particular all the administrative units pre-1946, of Kingdom of Italy (Q172579).