Wikidata:Property proposal/gender educated
gender educated edit
Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Organization
| Description | Genders educated at this educational institution |
|---|---|
| Data type | Item |
| Template parameter | "gender" in en:template:infobox school |
| Domain | instances of educational institution (Q2385804) (and its subclasses) |
| Allowed values | female (Q6581072), male (Q6581097), or both (possibly with qualifiers to indicate start/end times or year levels) |
| Example 1 | Loreto College (Q14935198) → female (Q6581072), male (Q6581097) (with qualifiers start time (P580) = 1875, end time (P582) = 1973) |
| Example 2 | Oakhill College (Q7073906) → male (Q6581097), female (Q6581072) (with qualifier start time (P580) = 1976) |
| Example 3 | Wellesley College (Q49205) → female (Q6581072) |
Motivation edit
Single-sex education was historically the norm, and is still very widespread. This property can be used to record whether the institution educates female students only, male students only, or both female and male students. Often, this status varies over time – many co-educational institutions used to be single-sex, and while the opposite phenomenon (a co-educational institution becoming single-sex) is far rarer, it is not unheard of; the qualifiers start time (P580) and end time (P582) can be used to express this. Another phenomena sometimes found is primary and secondary schools which are co-educational at some year levels/grades and single-sex at others; for example, my own high school Oakhill College (Q7073906), accepts boys in years 7-12, but only accepts girls in years 11-12 (originally it was boys-only in all years, but starting in 1976 it accepted girls in years 11-12, but has remained boys only 7-10). Or another example, Loreto College (Q14935198), which from 1875 to 1973 accepted both boys and girls in years K-3, but was girls only in years 4-12; nowadays, it is girls only 7-12 (years K-6 were discontinued.) I'm not sure how to express being single-sex in some years but coed in others, but could be done using some other property as qualifier (I guess one corresponding to parameter "grades" in en:Template:Infobox school). SJK (talk) 09:24, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- I created proposals for start grade and end grade properties. So, a partially coed school (single-sex in some years/grades, coed in others), those properties can be put on each gender to show which range of years/grades that gender is admitted for. SJK (talk) 08:29, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Discussion edit
- Comment from proposer: Now I've created this, I'm thinking maybe "educates gender" would be a better English label than "gender educated". But I'm leaving it as-is for now, if someone else agrees with me I will rename it. SJK (talk) 09:26, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- Another aside, I was thinking about whether any other values ought to be allowed other than female or male. I think, while some people do nowadays identify with various non-traditional gender identities, there is a lack of schools which specialise exclusively in educating people with such identities. While schools differ in how accepting they are of non-traditional gender identities (some schools are very accepting of such identities among students, other schools, especially those with a conservative religious ethos, can be strongly opposed), that issue generally isn't essential to the identity of the school in the way that being coed or single-sex is. Given that, I think the only allowed values should be female (Q6581072) and male (Q6581097). (If, hypothetically, someone was to open a school that only admitted students with a non-traditional gender identity, then I think some other value should be allowed for such a hypothetical school, but I'm not aware that any such schools actually exist anywhere at the present time, or ever have existed in the past.) SJK (talk) 09:53, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- @SJK: Institutions that are women's college (Q3660535) have indeed been addressing this issue in recent years, with different results. This property should allow a range of values, and also multiple values. (News story)--Pharos (talk) 03:25, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Another aside, I was thinking about whether any other values ought to be allowed other than female or male. I think, while some people do nowadays identify with various non-traditional gender identities, there is a lack of schools which specialise exclusively in educating people with such identities. While schools differ in how accepting they are of non-traditional gender identities (some schools are very accepting of such identities among students, other schools, especially those with a conservative religious ethos, can be strongly opposed), that issue generally isn't essential to the identity of the school in the way that being coed or single-sex is. Given that, I think the only allowed values should be female (Q6581072) and male (Q6581097). (If, hypothetically, someone was to open a school that only admitted students with a non-traditional gender identity, then I think some other value should be allowed for such a hypothetical school, but I'm not aware that any such schools actually exist anywhere at the present time, or ever have existed in the past.) SJK (talk) 09:53, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- Given the other aspects you mention, maybe a better model would be to have a property like this but pointing to an item that has the details of the rules governing admission - something like "admission criteria" with value being an item that mentions gender, age range, any educational prerequesite, nationality or other requirement etc.. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:01, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- @ArthurPSmith: There are millions of schools in the world. Do we really want to create a separate admission criteria item for each of them? Who is going to create this separate item for every school (a bot?) Also, whether the school is single-sex or coed is important information (especially in some countries where there is a significant mix of single-sex and coed schools), and making people go to a separate item to view/edit that info is going to make accessing that info very unfriendly. I think most schools the situation (single-sex vs coed) is relatively simple, or else even if there are some historical complexities most of the time few people will know it or bother to add it to Wikidata. I think the complexities of single-sex-vs-coed status varying over time can be handled with start time/end time qualifiers, and probably we could deal with the single-sex-in-some-grades-coed-in-others phenomena by introducing new "start grade" and "end grade" properties to be used as qualifiers. ("start grade" and "end grade", as well as being useful for qualifiers, could also encode whether the school overall is a K-12 or K-6 or K-8 or 7-12 or 7-10 or 8-12 or 11-12 or whatever school; while terms like "primary school", "middle school", "secondary school" often encode this information, the exact grade levels each corresponds to can vary from country to country and even within countries from school to school, so being explicit about the grade levels involved would help.) SJK (talk) 00:03, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SJK: I assume there are only a limited number of different admission criteria out there that would need to be covered. If several different ones apply, or different ones at different times, the property could have multiple values. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:56, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- @ArthurPSmith: There are millions of schools in the world. Do we really want to create a separate admission criteria item for each of them? Who is going to create this separate item for every school (a bot?) Also, whether the school is single-sex or coed is important information (especially in some countries where there is a significant mix of single-sex and coed schools), and making people go to a separate item to view/edit that info is going to make accessing that info very unfriendly. I think most schools the situation (single-sex vs coed) is relatively simple, or else even if there are some historical complexities most of the time few people will know it or bother to add it to Wikidata. I think the complexities of single-sex-vs-coed status varying over time can be handled with start time/end time qualifiers, and probably we could deal with the single-sex-in-some-grades-coed-in-others phenomena by introducing new "start grade" and "end grade" properties to be used as qualifiers. ("start grade" and "end grade", as well as being useful for qualifiers, could also encode whether the school overall is a K-12 or K-6 or K-8 or 7-12 or 7-10 or 8-12 or 11-12 or whatever school; while terms like "primary school", "middle school", "secondary school" often encode this information, the exact grade levels each corresponds to can vary from country to country and even within countries from school to school, so being explicit about the grade levels involved would help.) SJK (talk) 00:03, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
- Related: Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2018/08#How_do_I_indicate_that_a_school_served_only_black_or_white_students_during_segregation?. This is a much more general issue than just gender-specific schools. Plenty of institutions of various kinds are only intended to serve (and only admit) individuals of a particular religion, ethnic group, nationality or citizenship, age group, gender, speakers of a particular language, etc. This needs a more general solution than just "gender educated". --Yair rand (talk) 22:18, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
Support David (talk) 08:45, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- @ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2: Do you have any comment on any of the issues mentioned above? --Yair rand (talk) 18:25, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. I think something like the above is needed. I'd rather have female/male/both (both = 1 item) as values and possibly use items specific to this property. --- Jura 15:35, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Prefer more general I like what @ArthurPSmith: and @Yair rand: say here - we need a proposal to cover gender but it seems useful to combine other similar common criteria - like race or religion - into this property. Besides making this broad for demographics of humans, could this also be broad beyond school admission, and cover membership in any organization? Alternative names could be "membership requirement", "joining requirement", "admits only", "discriminates to favor", "favors demographic", "excludes demographic".
- In the United States until recently many universities would exclude students by race, gender, and religion. I think all of those go together with this. Lots of other organizations did and do the same thing - is it possible to have one property for all organizations doing this? Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:36, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
- It would be good to have a way to include information of the type "build a new library" or "practice some sport" as admission criteria. Given that criteria evolve, I don't think it's necessarily efficient to combine all of them. --- Jura 14:54, 8 September 2019 (UTC)