Talk:Q2405480

Classification

This item is used for voice actors = voice actor (Q2405480) with Category:Voice actors (Q6710506).

Subclasses:

dub actor (Q11481802) (film & tv) – dub actor with Category:Voice actors (Q21012862)

audio drama actor (Q1314140) (radio, audio productions: dramatised) – voice actor I (created because of Wikipedia, Q8976813)

audiobook narrator (Q20856740) (radio, audio productions: reading) – voice actor II (created because of Wikipedia, Category:Audiobook narrators (Q8275491))

voice actor ≠ voice dubber

Not all voice actors are working for film or tv. This item is mixing all medias and is linked 500+. --Kolja21 (talk) 02:22, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I've created a new item only for voice dubber: Q21012853. --Kolja21 (talk) 02:29, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Merged with dub actor (Q11481802)

See also: audio drama actor (Q1314140) and audiobook narrator (Q20856740)

Yeah but "voice actor" can also mean someone who dub movies/tv shows/animation. I don't think that's a good idea to seperate the items, but anyway. Thibaut120094 (talk) 15:30, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I know it's difficult, since Wikipedia articles and Wikidata in many cases still contradict each other, but we need a clear distinction independent from language problems. Otherwise radio and audiobooks would become a subclass of television. --Kolja21 (talk) 17:18, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I just asked the question on the Wikidata:Project chat. The problem is that "voice actor" just cannot be translated properly in some languages, at least not in French... Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 18:43, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

We have +200 languages in Wikidata. That a term has no 1:1 translation in an other language is nothing unusal. (Even 1 language has terms with multiple meanings.) Plese use in cases like this the field description. --Kolja21 (talk) 23:42, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but we're having an issue at the French wikipedia because someone has created biographical templates that import raw data from wikipedia. With the result that we have a lot of imprecise, badly-translated data being imported. Maybe some other projects have the same problem. See here. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 07:26, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@Jean-Jacques Georges, Kolja21: There is no language problem, there is a definition problem. In some languages we can have problem to find one word which can express a concept but you can always define a concept using a short sentence. So the question is what is the definition of

• voice actor
• dub actor

We don't need more at that level. If the definition is the same, merge. If there is a difference, please mention it and we will focuse on translation later. Right now we just need to know if these two concepts represent the same thing or not. Snipre (talk) 08:41, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@Snipre: For a definition regardless of language barriers see above "Classification". Item X (Q2405480) is the same case as "actor" (in general) with the subclasses: Theater actor, movie actor etc. --Kolja21 (talk) 21:28, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree. But if you can differentiate theater actor and movie actor, this means you can spot some differences and you just have to put them in the label of the items as a word or as a sentence. Snipre (talk) 15:34, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

There is also a cultural context. Some countries don't dub much (the US and the UK come to mind, but that's also the case for Greece and Portugal) except for cartoons, other dub a lot like France, Italy, Germany and Spain. For those countries, an actor who works essentially with his voice, like those who dub cartoons, is known primarily as a "dub actor" (or "dubber" if you like), even though dubbing is just a specialization for actors. In France, for example, there is no word for "voice actors" if by that we mean people who do not only dubbing (of cartoons, of foreign productions, etc) but also voice-overs, audiobooks, etc. They are just actors who happen do to these sort of things.

But most of the time actually, when I read about a "voice actor" (except for those who do specialize in things like voice-overs) it's about someone who in France - but also in Italy, for example - would be known as a "dubber" (Mel Blanc comes to mind). So actually the definition problem seems to be linked to the language problem. If we exclude audio books and things like that, we might merge with dub actor (Q11481802), even though voice-overs are not exactly "dubbing" (but that's still post-synchronization, which is a very similar concept). Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 09:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Maybe the solution would be to simply translate the item in French as dub actor (Q11481802) because it is very often used to say that. However, it is not a 100% ideal solution, as it does have a wider meaning. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 19:17, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

No I think you try to manipulate the words to get something which enter in your view. You can just translate "voice actor" using a periphrase like "acteur ayant une activité vocale". C'est sur que cela ne présente pas super bien dans une infobox, mais cela n'est pas la faute à WD, mais à la langue. Snipre (talk) 15:40, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

No, I'm not trying to manipulate the words, just trying to find a solution. "Acteur ayant une activité vocale" would be plain nonsense. Not only nobody says that in French, but it is also meaningless : since the end of silent movies, pretty much every single actor has been using his voice professionally, except of course for the few who specialize in roles without dialogues. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:20, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Okay, since the situation is still not satisfactory a few months after that discussion, I propose to change the French translation to "doubleur". As a result, it would be synonymous with dub actor (Q11481802), but I think that's the only solution. "Voice actor" is just untranslatable in French, where there is no such notion as "voice acting" or, should I say, voice acting is simply synonimous (or confused, if you like) with "dubbing". I don't know about other languages, but I'd say the situation is more or less the same in Italian, and probably in other languages (Spanish ?) where dubbing is very common.

Translating "voice actor" as "dubber" (instead as "voiceover actor") is, IMHO, the "least unsatisfactory" solution, since very few actors do only voiceovers, and it is just the only commonly understandable equivalent in French. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 09:22, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

C'est une bonne solution. On utilise la description pour désambiguiser, c'est comme ça que Wikidata a été conçue. author  TomT0m / talk page 10:42, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Done. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 09:53, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

J'ai changé la description pour quelque chose de plus conforme aux recommandations (Help:Description). (les trucs en français sont pas trop à jour on dirait) author  TomT0m / talk page 11:16, 23 February 2016 (UTC)