Talk:Q856713

There is a semantic mess with Christian hymn (Q1372064) and this (Christian hymn (Q856713)). — Finn Årup Nielsen (fnielsen) (talk) 23:09, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Separate the concept of hymn text from the item for Christian hymn

This item combines two concepts: Christian hymn as combination of text and tune, and Christian hymn as hymn text alone. This is problematic from both a hymnological and a liturgical standpoint because hymn texts and hymn tunes can be written independently of each other and combined in multiple ways. Some hymnals only include the texts of hymns, while others might combine a text and tune differently than other hymnals do. In order to link hymn items to hymnal items with accuracy, hymn texts, hymn tunes, and the hymns that combine them need to be separate items.

Separation of these concepts has precedence. For example, the Library of Congress Genre/Form Terms vocabulary has a separate entry for hymn texts, citing Grove Music Online as a reference for doing so. I would like to create a new item for "hymn text" as a subclass of lyrics and separate out the statements that conflate a Christian hymn with its text. However, I want to check in advance because the item history from May 20, 2022 says that "Christian hymn" is a highly used item and is semi-protected. If nobody foresees a problem with this, I will proceed with the separation. cstrickler (talk) 20:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

I support your plan. There is hymn (Q1640660) for the general idea of a hymn (a poem praising something or someone, often a deity but it may be also something different - I just added the English label and description, there had only been a German one before). How do you plan to model individual hymn (text) items? - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 10:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

@Valentina.Anitnelav I hadn't noticed the item for hymn (Q1640660), so thank you for drawing it to my attention! I've been looking into it and the linked German Wikipedia article, and while the concepts share similarities, I believe they're different enough to justify a new item. I'm thinking of "hymn text" as a subclass of lyrics (Q602446) rather than a type of poetry, though there is some overlap there.

As for modeling individual hymn text items, you can see a rough model on my project page. It's developed specifically for Christian hymns, but it could be reworked for other religious traditions. cstrickler (talk) 19:07, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks cstrickler for the link to the model! I agree. Just to suggest an alternative approach to model hymn texts: One could use instance of (P31)lyrics (Q602446) along with genre (P136)"hymn text" instead of instance of (P31)"hymn text". I see a tendency to use rather general values in P31 for creative works ("film", "literary work", "musical work/composition" ...) and indicate the categories marked by thematic or stylistic criteria (or other sets of conventions) using genre (P136). If you disagree, I don't mind if you use P31 - it is not consistent, yet, anyway. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 12:19, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

@Valentina.Anitnelav, thanks for suggesting the alternative approach! I hadn't thought of that, but I'm going to try it that way. That will help in situations where I need to run queries identifying lyrics that aren't strictly hymn texts. -cstrickler (talk) 19:31, 3 March 2023 (UTC)