An Errant Knight

instance of (P31) on U.S. highways

Hi! I've noticed that you've changed several instance of (P31) statements on American highways to state highway (Q1788582). However, per precedent and the WikiProject Roads standards page, instance of (P31) should always have road (Q34442) as its value on road items. Furthermore, setting instance of (P31) on road items to anything other than road (Q34442) usually breaks our project-space item status tables. The road's status as a state highway is reflected in transport network (P16), which would include that state's highway system item as a value. Please stop changing these values and follow consensus on these items. Thank you! -happy5214 02:53, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Makes sense, more or less. . ., but what then is the purpose of state highway (Q1788582)? If it should not be used for its self described purpose, why has it not been depreciated? An Errant Knight (talk) 03:20, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

It has several sitelinks? It was never used for instance of (P31) in a manner consistent with consensus, so there was never a need to deprecate it. -happy5214 20:12, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

I do know that we have had several editors revert the use of road in Europe though. --Rschen7754 00:11, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

What do they use instead? -happy5214 04:34, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

You can take a look at Wikidata:WikiProject Roads/Europe to get the gist of it, but various forms of trunk road, A-road, E-road, or whatever. When I did my cleanup run a week or two ago I could have used QuickStatements or some other tool to fix it but it would have taken too much time to change them all over (thousands of items) and I think I would risk being reverted.

By the way, An Errant Knight, thanks for your work on the items, it is much appreciated. --Rschen7754 04:38, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

GNIS

Hello. You're adding altitudes twice both in meters and feet on multiple elements. I'm not sure that this is supposed to happen. I think you need to use the most common unit in the given country – feet here – and let the conversion be done by third parties using the data. Eventually, I think the conversion in meters could be stored through a qualifier for reference, but I don't know think it should go into being a second, independent statement. Thierry Caro (talk) 05:07, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Most of what is initially encountered is items in the United States that have altitudes in meters (metres) only, so in many instances it is just a matter of adding the altitude in feet. All other areas of Wikimedia include both types of units, with the primary unit entered first, and the converted unit after. However, since conversion is not an option within Wikidata, this editor has been including both (to assist the majority of users that use metric units, while serving the local populace that does not). This editor does not see a need for this in countries that primarily used metric units. An Errant Knight (talk) 16:39, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

They should probably be stored under only one statement, then, using a qualifier to establish that the second value is actually equal to the first. Thierry Caro (talk) 15:39, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable and practical, but not sure exactly how that would be done. Can you provide an example? An Errant Knight (talk) 21:17, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Believed it had been figured out, but apparently not. An Errant Knight (talk) 01:31, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea either. I don't know which qualifier could be used. We need one of the 'number' datatype and I believe there isn't any. But again that might also be because the community has tacitly decided that there will be only one unit stored regardless of local contexts and readability… I don't know! But I really suggest you think twice before putting same values with different units under two different statements. I'll support a property proposal called something like 'equivalent value in another unit' if we people can agree this might be needed. Thierry Caro (talk) 11:16, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Maybe conversion to SI unit (P2370) and conversion to standard unit (P2442) could be broadened so that they are not meant to be used on unit items only anymore, but wherever a conversion is needed for readability. Thierry Caro (talk) 11:18, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

That was what seemed the best option to this editor, but was warned that it was an unacceptable use of that property (at least for now). An Errant Knight (talk) 15:26, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Descriptions of US Highways

The proper name for the network is "United States Numbered Highway System", so an individual piece of that network should be called a "United States Numbered Highway", not a "Numbered Highway". Additionally, unlike the Interstate Highway System, three-digit US Highways aren't "auxiliary highways"; they're still mainline highways. In the US Highway System, the auxiliary highways are the special routes: alternates, business routes, etc. Imzadi 1979 → 04:51, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

@Imzadi1979: While the correct official name is (as you mentioned) "United States Numbered Highway", in most instances it would end up in actual use as ""United States Numbered Highway in the United States", which is awfully wordy and redundant. The capitalized shorted version still indicates an official name, but sounds much better ("Numbered Highway in the United States") and is more correct that the commonly appearing "numbered highway in the United States" or the even more frequently used (and even more incorrect) "Numbered U.S. Highway". The "Numbered Highway" usage would be similar to using "United States" as a shorted version of the full official name of the country ("United States of America").

As for auxiliary Numbered Highway issue, thank you for the clarification of something that this editor obviously overlooked. An Errant Knight (talk) 05:32, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Except that "Numbered Highway" is ambiguous and missing half of the name. Unlike "Interstate Highway", it's not a proper name in that format. I'd argue that in these cases, putting "in the United States" or ", United States" (after a state name) is redundant because the proper name already provides the necessary context. Imzadi 1979 → 23:54, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

@Imzadi1979: One could assert as well that "United States" itself "is ambiguous and missing half of the name" and is "not a proper name". Does it refer the country in North America or the former name of a country South America. So it should actually be "United States Numbered Highway in the United States of America" (a real mouthful). A somewhat similar argument was made that it was obvious that places listed on the National Register of Historic Places (NRHP) are in the United States. However, though it may be "obvious", it is actually not correct as there are several places on the NRHP that are located outside the United States and its sovereign control. The point being that what may seem obvious, may not actually be so (or even accurate).

It seems that there is a lack of agreement regarding this matter. An Errant Knight (talk)

"Numbered Highway" (both words capitalized) implies a proper name, yet those two words alone do not correspond to a specific classification of highway. However, "United States Numbered Highway" is a proper name for a classification of highway, just as "Interstate Highway" does vs. "interstate highway". Now, if you can find me a US Highway located outside of the United States (of America), then you may have a point. Since none have ever existed outside the confines of the 48 contiguous states, then it's not ambiguous. FAs on US Highways omit the country in the lead sentence to avoid the dedundancy in wording. For the time being, I'll be restoring "United States" to "Numbered Highway" to make sure that the classification is at least correct on any short descriptions that I see. Imzadi 1979 → 04:48, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

The three-digit US Highways aren't considered auxiliary highways by AASHTO. They're just as primary as their two-digit siblings. According to AASHTO, the auxiliary US highways are the special routes. This is different than the classification in the Interstate Highway System. Imzadi 1979 → 05:31, 14 December 2021 (UTC)