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Previous discussion was archived at User talk:Oravrattas/Archive 2 on 2016-04-02.

Davidpar (talkcontribs)
Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

Do you have some examples of where I did this? Mostly I was doing this the other way around: migrating P39 records from the general "not part of a political party" to the specific "not part of a parliamentary group", so I suspect any the other way around may have been a mistake, but examples would help me look more closely. Thanks!

Davidpar (talkcontribs)

Q11924122, Q20006587, Q4889041, ...

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

The definition of those have changed quite a bit even in the time since those changes. I do agreed that we'd benefit from being precise in the difference between someone standing for election as an independent candidate, and someone sitting in a legislature as part of one. In some countries there is very little difference between those, but in many the difference is significant.

BTW, with respect to Members of the European Parliament, I suspect we should be using Non-Inscrits (Q1440626) rather than either of the ones mentioned.

Davidpar (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Non-attached MP"
Ederporto (talkcontribs)
Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

That's exactly what I have been doing… Do you have an example of one where I've removed a plain election (Q40231) and not added something more suitable? That would imply something is going wrong somewhere, so it would be good to track it down. Thanks.

Ederporto (talkcontribs)

Acre gubernatorial election, 2014 (Q17813784) and Acre gubernatorial election for Senate, 2014 (Q51330919) are the ones that caught my eyes (I'm modeling the Brazilian elections). Both of them you removed "election" and put "gubernatorial election" as instance, but the first is about the election event itself, which is divided into 2 rounds, which in turn are umbrelas for the other elections (each position is an election itself). I wouldn't remove instance of election, since this is what they are. In fact, office contested (P541) and applies to jurisdiction (P1001) fullfills perfectly the distinction you are trying to declare. Please take into consideration that not an electoral process is equal to another (that's why I limited myself to the Brazilian one) and let me know if you feel the need of some insight, I'd be glad to help. Good contributions

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

The problem here seems to be that these items are about quite different things depending on what language you're working in! In English Acre gubernatorial election, 2014 (Q17813784) is only about the election for Governor, but in Portuguese it's about all the elections at that time. This seems to have led to some slightly odd descriptions then, where Acre gubernatorial election for Senate, 2014 (Q51330919) in English is the "Gubernatorial election for the Senate", which doesn't make any sense. So based on the English description and link, the correct P31 for Q17813784 would indeed be gubernatorial election (Q15261477), but then that's incorrect for the Portuguese version. We're going to need to split that item, and move either the English or Portuguese Wikipedia link to a different one (I'm not sure whether something suitable already exists, or would need to be created).

Ederporto (talkcontribs)

I read the article in enwiki and it is about the election of the governor only. I moved it to State elections in Acre in 2014 for Governor (Q51336711), although I'm reluctant on the articles being orphan. But, besides the Wikipedia interlink, I would suggest to you base these choices of instances etc in the items statements themselves, not the label and/or descriptions, once those can be subjective and misled by wrong assumptions or translations. I didn't know "gubernatorial election" would only apply to the governor, I thought it was the "english" way to represent "state elections". Thank you for your insights!

Reply to "Elections"
Gikü (talkcontribs)
Oravrattas (talkcontribs)
Gikü (talkcontribs)

Thank you. Looks better now.

Reply to "Source?"

Wikidata Glossary / Translation error = Database Error

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

Dias atrás eu achei erro de tradução dentro do Glossary Wikidata, o erro está em inglês, o erro está em português, e o erro já foi traduzido para diversos idiomas.

Esse Query SQL do wikidata de acordo com o manual que uma pessoa me mostrou dentro do Facebook, esse Query SQL do wikidata é o local de técnico fazer a configuração do servidor Apache de banco de dados do Wikidata, esse local é utilizado para técnico fazer a configuração de URL de links de informações de conteúdo existente dentro do wikidata. Pessoa leiga em Query SQL não pode utilizar isso.  Algo feito errado ali dentro site pode parar de funcionar. Eu li o início desse manual dias atrás.  Eu sou Analista de Sistemas Senior, ali dentro desse Query SQL não é local de pessoa leiga fazer testes em SQL, aquilo é local de técnico expert nesse manual técnico fazer a configuração do servidor web de banco de dados do wikidata.  Já falei dias atrás para a Fundação da Wikipédia procurar um técnico expert nesse manual para ele fazer uma revisão na configuração de todas as URL de todos os sites dos 43 projetos da Wikipédia = 43 servidores web?

Days ago I found a translation error inside the Glossary Wikidata, the error is in English, the error is in Portuguese, and the error has already been translated into several languages.

This wikidata SQL Query according to the manual that a person showed me inside Facebook, this wikidata SQL Query is the technical site to do the Apache server configuration of Wikidata database, this place is used to technician make the URL link setting of existing content information within wikidata. Layman in SQL Query can not use this. Something done wrong there inside site can stop working. I read the beginning of this manual days ago. I am a Senior Systems Analyst, there within that SQL Query is not a layperson's place to do tests in SQL, it is the technical expert's place in this technical manual to do the wikidata database web server configuration. Have I told you days ago to the Wikipedia Foundation to seek an expert expert in this manual to do a review in the configuration of all the URLs of all the sites of the 43 projects of Wikipedia = 43 web servers?

I talked about it with Jimmy Wales (Wikipedia Foundation) in Instagram, and Facebook and email.


In Wikidata Glossary exist error about the information of RDF Triple case in translation english + portuguese + etc ....


Wikidata talk:Glossary/pt

Wikidata talk:Glossary/pt-br

Manual of servidor web (database) = https://jena.apache.org/tutorials/sparql.html

Manual of servidor web (database) = https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

Achei  agora = https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:SPARQL_query_service/Wikidata_Query_Help/pt-br

Esse SPARQL é um servidor web Apache de banco de dados online (Big Data), não é para pessoa leiga em SQL utilizar.

Para uma pessoa utilizar isso tem que ter o curso completo de banco de dados e do SQL concluído.

Um erro feito ali dentro pode fazer um site parar de funcionar. No manual mostra que ali se configura URL de sites.

I found this now = https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:SPARQL_query_service/Wikidata_Query_Help

This SPARQL is an Apache web server from online database (Big Data), it is not for layman in SQL to use.

For a person to use this have to have the complete course of database and SQL completed.

A mistake made there could make a website stop working. In the manual it shows that there is configured URL of sites.

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

I'm not quite sure what you're asking me, or why, but I think you may be mistaking me for someone else…

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

Eu sou analista de sistemas senior. Não sei qual é a sua profissão.  Mas esse problema de erro em database eu já falei com o Jimmy Wales da Fundação Wikipedia.  O SPARQL é um database servidor web (Big Data). Pessoa leiga em banco de dados, pessoa leiga em programação SQL, não deve utilizar o SQL Query do SPARQL.  Um erro feito lá dentro em URL, um site pode parar de funcionar.

Boa tarde.

I am a senior systems analyst. I do not know what your profession is. But this database error problem I already talked to the Wikipedia Foundation Jimmy Wales. SPARQL is a web server database (Big Data). Lay person in a database, lay person in SQL programming, should not use the SQL Query of SPARQL. A mistake made there in URL, a website may stop working.

Good afternoon.

Reply to "Wikidata Glossary / Translation error = Database Error"
Amgauna (talkcontribs)

E dentro do Wikimedia Commons eu e o MB-one, nós notamos um problema existindo.  Existe categorias com erro de link quebrado.

Quando uma pessoa envia uma fotografia, o sistema web do Commons sofre uma atualização online, agora todas as pessoas quando enviam um arquivo tem que identificar no nome do arquivo o que é a fotografia do arquivo (isso em todas as fotografias), e tem que obrigatório preencher a descrição do que é a fotografia, e tem que obrigatório dentro do item de busca de categorias informar qual categoria aquela fotografia tem que ser colocada.

O problema é tem erro de links em categorias, tem categorias que existem, mas a categoria não aparece dentro da área de busca de categorias que fica em baixo das fotografias, não aparece dentro do item de busca de categorias no momento que a pessoa envia um fotografia, e tem categorias que aquela faixa azul que fica em cima e que fica em baixo não está aparecendo dentro da categoria.  E as categorias que contém uma vírgula dentro do nome da categoria, ela não aparece de forma automática dentro da busca da faixa azul de categorias, e ela não aparece automático dentro da busca de categorias que fica em baixo de fotografias, e não aparece automático dentro da busca de categorias no momento que uma pessoa está enviando uma fotografia para dentro do Commons. Eu já falei sobre isso com diversas pessoas.

And within Wikimedia Commons I and {{ping|MB-one}}, we noticed a problem existed. There are categories with broken link error.

When a person submits a photograph, the Commons web system undergoes an online update, now all the people when sending a file must identify in the filename what is the photograph of the file (this in all the photographs), and has to obligatory fill in the description of what the photograph is, and have to compile inside the category search item to inform which category that photograph has to be placed.

The problem is that there is link error in categories, there are categories that exist, but the category does not appear within the category search area that is below the photographs, it does not appear inside the category search item at the moment the person sends a photography, and has categories that the blue band above and below is not appearing within the category. And the categories that contain a comma within the category name do not appear automatically within the blue category search, and it does not appear automatically within the category search that is underneath photographs, and does not appear automatically within of the search of categories at the moment that a person is sending a photograph into the Commons. I've already talked about this with several people.

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

I'm afraid that's not an area I know very much about.

Amgauna (talkcontribs)


Reply to "Wikimedia Commons / Category error"

Rio de Janeiro / São Paulo / Brazil

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

Eu sou brasileira, eu nasci e trabalho no Rio de Janeiro, eu moro no bairro de Botafogo.

No Rio de Janeiro, existe os bairros que ficam dentro da Cidade do Rio de Janeiro (Brazil), e a Cidade do Rio de Janeiro, ela fica localizado dentro do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

Em São Paulo, existe os bairros que ficam dentro da Cidade de São Paulo (Brazil), e a cidade de São Paulo, ela fica localizada dentro do Estado de São Paulo (Brazil).

I am Brazilian, I was born and I work in Rio de Janeiro, I live in the neighborhood of Botafogo.

In Rio de Janeiro, there are the districts that are within the City of Rio de Janeiro (Brazil), and the City of Rio de Janeiro, it is located within the State of Rio de Janeiro.

In São Paulo, there are the neighborhoods that are within the City of São Paulo (Brazil), and the city of São Paulo, it is located within the State of São Paulo (Brazil).

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

City of Rio de Janeiro (Brazil) is not equal to State of Rio de Janeiro (Brazil)

City of São Paulo (Brazil) is not equal to State of São Paulo (Brazil)

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

There are two different issues here, that I can see.

Firstly, you are changing the labels of some of the states — for example, Q41428 to be "Rio de Janeiro State" instead of "Rio de Janeiro". This is not needed: as per Help:Label, the disambiguation between the city and the state goes in the Description, not the Label. Adding it to a couple of them, but not others, introduces an inconsistency:

SELECT ?item ?itemLabel WHERE {
  ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q485258.
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "en". }
ORDER BY ?itemLabel

Try it!

Secondly, you took the item for the city of Sao Paulo Q174 and changed all the labels to be for the state: https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q174&type=revision&diff=752861903&oldid=742127468; then you took the item for the state Q175, and changed its labels to be for the city: https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q175&type=revision&diff=752858488&oldid=747509479

The issue is not whether these are the same thing: they're obviously not — but that you named them both back to front.

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

Não.  Ali dentro desse item São Paulo e do item Rio de Janeiro estava uma confusão. E com erros de tradução lá dentro desse item.  Tem pessoas traduzindo como estado. Tem pessoas traduzindo como cidade.

Existe Rio de Janeiro, é uma cidade do Brasil.

Existe Rio de Janeiro, é um estado do Brasil.

Existe São Paulo, é uma cidade do Brasil.

Existe São Paulo, é um estado do Brasil.

No Brasil os bairros ficam dentro de cidades.

No Brasil as cidades ficam dentro de estados.

Ali dentro do objeto propriedade eu vi pessoas fazendo a tradução de forma errada, misturando a palavra estado junto com a palavra cidade, lá dentro em vários idiomas.

Cidade no Brasil, não é igual a estado no Brasil, é diferente.  

No. There, inside that item, São Paulo and the item Rio de Janeiro, was a mess. And with translation errors inside that item. There are people translating as status. There are people translating as city.

There is Rio de Janeiro, it is a city of Brazil.

There is Rio de Janeiro, it is a state of Brazil.

There is São Paulo, it is a city of Brazil.

There is São Paulo, it is a state of Brazil.

In Brazil the neighborhoods are within cities.

In Brazil the cities are within states.

There inside the property object I saw people doing the translation wrongly, blending the word state together with the word city, in there in several languages.

City in Brazil, is not equal to state in Brazil, is different.

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

Eu não sei usar o query SQL desse sistema wikidata.

Por esse motivo eu não vou programar query aqui.

I do not know how to use the SQL query of this wikidata system.

That's why I'm not going to program a query here.

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

No Brasil essa palavra Município = Cidade

In Brazil this word Municipality = City

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

Where things are a mess, then please do tidy them up — that will be very much appreciated. But Q174 needs to stay as the city, and Q175 as the state — you can see this by which Wikipedia articles are linked from each of them. Where any data on one should be on the other, then it is of course very useful to correct that, but you shouldn't switch the meaning of the items around.

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

No, allí dentro de ese ítem São Paulo y del ítem Río de Janeiro estaba una confusión. Y con errores de traducción dentro de ese elemento. Hay personas que traducen como estado. Hay gente que traduce como ciudad.

Hay Río de Janeiro, es una ciudad de Brasil.

Hay Río de Janeiro, es un estado de Brasil.

Hay Sao Paulo, es una ciudad de Brasil.

Hay Sao Paulo, es un estado de Brasil.

En Brasil los barrios quedan dentro de ciudades.

En Brasil las ciudades quedan dentro de estados.

Allí dentro del objeto de propiedad he visto gente haciendo la traducción de forma equivocada, mezclando la palabra estado junto con la palabra ciudad, dentro de varios idiomas.

Ciudad en Brasil, no es igual a estado en Brasil, es diferente.

En Brasil esa palabra Municipio = Ciudad

Non. Là, à l’intérieur de cet objet, São Paulo et l’article de Rio de Janeiro, il y avait un désordre. Et avec des erreurs de traduction dans cet article. Il y a des gens qui traduisent en statut. Il y a des gens qui traduisent en ville.

Il y a Rio de Janeiro, c'est une ville du Brésil.

Il y a Rio de Janeiro, c'est un état du Brésil.

Il y a São Paulo, c'est une ville du Brésil.

Il y a São Paulo, c'est un état du Brésil.

Au Brésil, les quartiers se trouvent dans les villes.

Au Brésil, les villes sont situées dans des États.

Là, à l'intérieur de l'objet de propriété, j'ai vu des gens faire la traduction à tort, mélangeant le mot état avec le mot ville, dans plusieurs langues.

Ville au Brésil, n'est pas égal à l'état au Brésil, est différent.

Au Brésil, ce mot municipalité = ville

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

Então o Q174 tem que conter a palavra Cidade no nome junto do titulo

Então o Q175 tem que conter a palavra Estado no nome junto do título

Para as pessoas que fizeram tradução errada, poder traduzir o texto depois.

Porque no Brasil existe nomes igual de cidades em outros estados do Brasil.

Porque no Brasil existe nomes igual de bairros em outros estados do Brasil.

Then Q174 must contain the word City in the name next to the title

Then the Q175 has to contain the word State in the name next to the title

For people who have mistranslated, be able to translate the text later.

Because in Brazil there are similar names of cities in other states of Brazil.

Because in Brazil there are similar names of neighborhoods in other states of Brazil.

Alors Q174 doit contenir le mot Ville dans le nom à côté du titre

Ensuite, le Q175 doit contenir le mot État dans le nom à côté du titre

Pour ceux qui ont mal traduit, soyez capable de traduire le texte plus tard.

Parce qu'au Brésil, il existe des noms similaires de villes dans d'autres États du Brésil.

Parce qu'au Brésil, il existe des noms similaires de quartiers dans d'autres États du Brésil.

Entonces el Q174 tiene que contener la palabra Ciudad en el nombre junto al título

Entonces el Q175 tiene que contener la palabra Estado en el nombre junto al título

Para las personas que hicieron traducción equivocada, poder traducir el texto después.

Porque en Brasil existen nombres igual de ciudades en otros estados de Brasil.

Porque en Brasil existen nombres igual de barrios en otros estados de Brasil.

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

It should be made clear in the Description, not in the Label: see the Help text at Help:Label for more information on this.

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

Discordo.  Deve ficar claro na descrição e no rótulo do objeto.  Vários itens aqui dentro do wikidata tem o mesmo nome e o sentido desses itens são diferentes.  

Aqui dentro do wikidata eu vi esta semana que várias pessoas criaram repetido o mesmo item igual para se referir ao mesmo objeto.  

E eu vi também está semana que dentro de vários itens de objetos criados aqui dentro do wikidata contém erros de tradução no que se refere o objeto criado.

Porque a pessoa quando procura algo aqui dentro do wikidata essa busca é feito pelo nome do objeto que a pessoa está procurando, e a pessoa não acha o que procura estão criando de novo um objeto que já existe aqui dentro do wikidata.  

Eu vi vários itens repetidos aqui, se referindo a mesma coisa.  E eu vi vários itens repetidos aqui dentro se referindo a outros objetos mas que tem nome igual.

Tem erros de tradução dentro de vários objetos aqui dentro do wikidata, e o erro está dentro do objeto em diversos idiomas.  

Porque pessoas procuram pelo nome. Pegam o objeto errado que tem o nome igual ao que estavam procurando, e a consequência disso é fazem tradução errado dentro.

I disagree. It should be clear in the description and the label of the object. Several items here inside the wikidata have the same name and the meaning of these items are different.

Here inside the wikidata I saw this week that several people have created repeated the same equal item to refer to the same object.

And I've also seen this week that within several object items created here inside the wikidata contains translation errors regarding the created object.

Because the person when searching for something here inside the wikidata this search is done by the name of the object that the person is looking for, and the person does not find what they are looking for they are re-creating an object that already exists here inside the wikidata.

I have seen several items repeated here, referring to the same thing. And I have seen several items repeated here in referring to other objects but that have equal name.

There are translation errors inside several objects here inside the wikidata, and the error is inside the object in several languages.

Because people look for the name. They take the wrong object that has the name equal to what they were looking for, and the consequence of that is they do wrong translation inside.

No estoy de acuerdo. Debe quedar claro en la descripción y en la etiqueta del objeto. Varios elementos aquí dentro del wikidata tienen el mismo nombre y el sentido de estos elementos son diferentes.

Aquí dentro del wikidata vi esta semana que varias personas crearon repetidamente el mismo elemento igual para referirse al mismo objeto.

Y he visto también esta semana que dentro de varios elementos de objetos creados aquí dentro del wikidata contiene errores de traducción en lo que se refiere al objeto creado.

Porque la persona cuando busca algo aquí dentro del wikidata esa búsqueda es hecha por el nombre del objeto que la persona está buscando, y la persona no encuentra lo que busca están creando de nuevo un objeto que ya existe aquí dentro del wikidata.

He visto varios artículos repetidos aquí, refiriéndose a la misma cosa. Y he visto varios elementos repetidos aquí dentro refiriéndose a otros objetos pero que tiene un nombre igual.

Tiene errores de traducción dentro de varios objetos aquí dentro del wikidata, y el error está dentro del objeto en varios idiomas.

Porque las personas buscan el nombre. El objeto equivocado que tiene el nombre igual al que estaban buscando, y la consecuencia de eso es hacer la traducción equivocada dentro.

Je ne suis pas d'accord Cela devrait être clair dans la description et l'étiquette de l'objet. Plusieurs éléments dans le wikidata ont le même nom et la signification de ces éléments est différente.

Ici, dans le wikidata que j'ai vu cette semaine, plusieurs personnes ont créé le même article pour faire référence au même objet.

Et j'ai également vu cette semaine qu'au sein de plusieurs objets créés ici à l'intérieur du wikidata, il y a des erreurs de traduction concernant l'objet créé.

Parce que la personne qui cherche quelque chose ici dans le wikidata, cette recherche se fait par le nom de l'objet recherché, et la personne ne trouve pas ce qu'elle cherche; elle recrée un objet existant déjà dans le wikidata.

J'ai vu plusieurs articles répétés ici, se référant à la même chose. Et j'ai vu plusieurs éléments répétés ici en se référant à d'autres objets mais qui ont le même nom.

Il y a des erreurs de traduction à l'intérieur de plusieurs objets dans le wikidata, et l'erreur se trouve dans l'objet en plusieurs langues.

Parce que les gens recherchent le nom. Ils prennent le mauvais objet qui a le nom égal à ce qu'ils cherchaient, et la conséquence est qu'ils font une mauvaise traduction à l'intérieur.

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

If you disagree with the policy you should try to get it changed: I'm just pointing you at what the Help says, and explaining why your changes will get reverted. I suggest raising your disagreement at Help talk:Label or Wikidata:Project chat

Amgauna (talkcontribs)

Obrigado.  Eu vou fazer isso, porque existem vários itens, existem vários objetos que o nome é igual mas o que ele significa é diferente.  Tem pessoas pegando errado porque tem nome igual, e fazendo a tradução errada dentro, exatamente porque tem o nome igual, e não percebe que é outro tipo de item (objeto) diferente com o mesmo nome.

Thank you. I'll do this because there are several items, there are several objects that the name is the same but what it means is different. There are people getting wrong because they have the same name, and doing the wrong translation inside, exactly because it has the same name, and does not realize that it is another type of different item (object) with the same name.

Reply to "Rio de Janeiro / São Paulo / Brazil"
Svavar Kjarrval (talkcontribs)

Noticed a bot edit regarding an Icelandic politician and wanted to encourage you to continue. I was thinking about going over the MPs manually myself to make the information more complete, although I like the bot idea better. The parliament has an XML feed you could use to enrich the information in your database, accessible at http://www.althingi.is/altext/xml/ with a feed including a complete list of MPs.

If I were to add more Althingi MPs in the future, what information would I need to add for your bot to be confident enough to make edits for that entry?

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

I was actually just looking at this again this evening, as it's all out of date with the recent election. That looks like it could be a very useful XML file — do you know if that data is explicitly Public Domain? It's often tricky to bulk-import from official sources due to potential database rights issues. Previously I was updating from Wikipedia pages, but handling all the mid-term changes was quite tricky, so I've mostly only gone for the low-hanging fruit so far. Do you know if there are any other people interested in helping out with this data? I've helped out with parliamentary information hackdays in quite a few countries over the last few weeks, and would love to try one for Iceland too (we have some funding for things like this from a WMF grant)

Svavar Kjarrval (talkcontribs)

Icelandic copyright law doesn't allow for a full public domain release, but of course allows the usual copyright licences. There's no specific licence on the parliament site so I assume there's full copyright. The culture is often that government agencies don't care much for enforcing database rights if the data is explicitly released to be used by the public. But I do understand your caution, so I'd suggest that you simply write them a simple message to ask them if you could extract the data from their website. The feed is there to be utilised and they're sure to grant your request as long as you don't ask them to do too much paperwork on their end.

If you could describe the mid-term problem further, I might be of service. I've used this data before so I'm quite familiar with it and also some of the inner workings of the parliament system. I'll be free to assist you further with anything more complicated after my big exam next Monday.

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

Yes — without a specific copyright waiver we can't easily bulk import this data. I know one of the members though, so I'll see if they can ask, rather than contacting the parliament cold.

For mid-term changes I'm referring to the sorts of things in the notes fields on the Wikipedia pages (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_parliament_of_Iceland,_2003%E2%80%9307#Notes) — usually replacements or party changes. These are recorded inconsistently across different terms, and across the English and Icelandic Wikipedias, so are almost certainly all going to need to be edited by hand.

I hope the exam goes well!

Svavar Kjarrval (talkcontribs)

Thanks. We can discuss the import when you get the data, or soon after the exam if you want to prepare to parse the data as soon as you get permission.

Svavar Kjarrval (talkcontribs)

The exam is over and I'm ready to continue when you are.

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

I suspect I'm not going to have a lot of time to look at this in any depth until the new year. Are there particular things you're keen to work on directly?

Svavar Kjarrval (talkcontribs)

I would like to provide the appropriate information to the Wikidata entries for the MPs so that bots will realise the connection and fill in the missing information they have. What information would be enough in the case of your bot when you'll eventually process the information?

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

I don't have any bot that works quite like that — the previous updates were simply taking information from the Wikipedia "List of Members" pages (such as https://is.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kj%C3%B6rnir_al%C3%BEingismenn_2009), and adding that to Wikidata. The primary information there is relatively straightforward; the complicated part is all the party changes and people resigning to become ministers etc noted at the end of the sections.

Svavar Kjarrval (talkcontribs)

MPs in Iceland don't (usually) resign to become ministers. If it has happened at all, the last time it happened would've been a long time ago. It's actually uncommon for non-MPs to become ministers.

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

Ah, so Iceland has the same model as the UK, where people are allowed to hold executive and legislative office simultaneously, rather than the stricter separation of powers of having to temporarily resign their parliamentary seat if they join the cabinet? That certainly makes it easier if I can simply ignore the "Árið 2010 varð Ögmundur Jónasson samgönguráðherra" etc, and means the only thing that will impact these memberships are the party changes and occasional resignation/death in office, which we can probably handle manually.

Svavar Kjarrval (talkcontribs)

Without knowing the UK model in detail I can't say it's exactly the same as in Iceland, but your description applies to the Icelandic situation.

Svavar Kjarrval (talkcontribs)

The XML site I pointed to earlier now has information about ministers and when they are/were in office.

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)
Svavar Kjarrval (talkcontribs)

Thanks! I noticed the list is missing Þorgerður Katrín Gunnarsdóttir (Q139225).

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

If you go through to her item, you can see that the position is listed, but has been marked as deprecated with a reason given of "possibly invalid entry requiring further references". If you can add any references to that, you could then remove the deprecation.

Reply to "Icelandic politicians"
Mahir256 (talkcontribs)
Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

Oh, interesting — thanks for the pointer! Do you know if there's active work going on to add all that data?

Mahir256 (talkcontribs)

I am not aware of any coordinated effort to do so—though there be a WikiProject India, large-scale efforts under that umbrella have not gone very far yet. It may be worth proposing such a thing on the WikiProject's talk page, and I know @Owenpatel: has been adding data regarding state legislatures, so it is certainly possible to get something going.

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

That would be great. I think we should be able to get the current term up to date quite easily, but it would be excellent if we could also get historic data. English Wikipedia seems to have fairly decent information, though the further back that goes the fewer people have Wikipedia pages (and thus possibly not Wikidata items, unless someone has already done a lot of work to bulk create those — although some will probably exist via other language Wikipedias). But it doesn't seem like it should be too difficult to bulk import a lot of that (just time consuming!)

I've also checked, and there are around 50 cases where someone has a plain member of the Lok Sabha (Q16556694) statement with a term qualifier:

SELECT ?item ?itemLabel ?term ?termLabel
  ?item p:P39 [ ps:P39 wd:Q16556694 ; pq:P2937 ?term ] .
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
ORDER BY ?term

Try it!

Tomorrow morning I'll use PositionStatements to migrate all of those to the term-specific items instead.

Mahir256 (talkcontribs)

Also @Rich Cassidy: so that you are aware of this discussion. Please inform others affiliated with mySociety about this as well if they also decide to improve Lok Sabha members' items.

Reply to "Lok Sabha members"
Andrew Gray (talkcontribs)
Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

I know this part isn't your doing, but the connection to Official Opposition Shadow Cabinet (Q2579210) seems the wrong way around there (As the UK names the posts the opposite way to how many other countries do it — where usually where a "minister" is the senior post and "secretary" the junior one — I suspect there are quite a few other mislabellings, or bad instance of (P31) statements on the government side, never mind the opposition.)

I've never been quite sure how to set these all up, so have largely ignored them for now to concentrate on the actual cabinet, rather than the shadow one. But it would definitely be good to get a good approach for this hammered out. There should presumably also be some connection between the Shadow post and the "full" one, but I'm not sure we really have a suitable way to do that at the moment. My suspicion is that we probably want to find or create a suitable property to connect the role to the portfolio, rather than doing this through quite awkward subclassing.

I'll give it all some more thought.

Andrew Gray (talkcontribs)

"Not important right now" does seem fair enough :-). I've completely avoided worrying about ministries for the time being so I'm still a little hazy on how it's meant to work for them. And, yes, a "position shadows role" or similar would seem desirable. Do we have a generic "corresponds to" property, I wonder?

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

In terms of which item each specific position is a subclass of, the current shadow items look pretty much correct to me, though I'm increasingly wary of anything only being expressed through instance of (P31) or subclass of (P279). I think having the Shadow Secretary positions each be individually part of Official Opposition Shadow Cabinet (Q2579210) would be in keeping with the general approach, which is to have the cabinet-level positions each be part of the cabinet (e.g. Q3397406#P361). In theory that would let us also generate lists of who held each post during each instance of the shadow cabinet. I've added most of the ones I could find like this, and generated Wikidata:WikiProject every politician/United Kingdom/Shadow Cabinet/Q19972857 as an example (that's a generic template, though we'll need to factor that out to something slightly better at some point as I can't find a way to make it work with Listeria when a single person has held multiple positions in the same Cabinet.)

More generally, if we want to go deeply into the difference between junior Ministers and full-blown Cabinet Secretaries, we'll probably need to tease apart the individual Cabinets from their Ministries: currently for the UK there tends to be a single item representing the combination of those. For most things that's probably Good Enough™, but, if my understanding is correct, the junior ministers are only part of the Ministry, not the full Cabinet.

Reply to "Shadow ministries"
Jura1 (talkcontribs)
Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

@Jura1: can you explain a little more what you mean by "nonsense" or "dups" here?

I'm currently adding position held (P39) statements for people being a member of 50th Federal Assembly of Switzerland (Q21511406), and I did filter out anyone who already had such a statement. The most recent one added, for example is Hugues Hiltpold (Q121172) — there is an existing statement that says he has been a member of the National Council since 2007, but giving details of his most recent membership, including the parliamentary group (P4100) and electoral district (P768) does not seem to be nonsensical to me, and is adding different information to what is in the existing statement. Both statements are sourced, and, best I can see, neither source includes the superset of both statements.

Jura1 (talkcontribs)

There is generally just one statement for the position. This unless the person held several non-consecutive terms.

Oravrattas (talkcontribs)

No, as per previous discussion on this very topic, the preferred model is to have a separate position held (P39) statement each time something significant changes. This is the model used by the existing Political projects for the United Kingdom ("Each discrete term in office is given a different statement, with a new one assigned whenever there is a definable break in service; for example, if … Parliament is dissolved"), France ("à répéter pour chaque mandat"), Germany (" wobei grundsätzlich jede weitere Amtszeit als neues Statement hinzugefügt werden soll"), and widely adopted across Wikidata:WikiProject every politician. This allows for much richer information than a single, combined, P39 statement with a single start time (P580) and end time (P582): in most cases, each change in parliamentary term (P2937) will also have require a distinct elected in (P2715) qualifier, the sources will often be different (in many cases, there will be a distinct official URL for each term's membership), and in many countries the parliamentary group (P4100) will strictly be a new entity in each term. You have argued against this approach before, but the consensus has been against your approach.

Jura1 (talkcontribs)

I take note of your disagreement with Wikidata's current approach, the running of an unapproved bot, and handling of discussions with quality issues of your contributions.

Reply to "Nonsense edits"