Wikidata:Property proposal/Hultschiner Soldaten ID

Hultschiner Soldaten ID

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Person

   Withdrawn

Description	identifier for a Wehrmacht soldier from Hultschin Region
Represents	Q116693319
Data type	External identifier
Domain	human (Q5)
Allowed values	[a-z0-9-]+
Example 1	Albert Ferenz (Q1544158) → ferenz-albert
Example 2	Emanuel Glumbik (Q108469826) → glumbik-emanuel
Example 3	Emanuel Schäfer (Q70735) → schafer-emanuel
Source	https://hultschiner-soldaten.de/soldat/
Formatter URL	https://hultschiner-soldaten.de/soldat/$1/
Applicable "stated in"-value	Q116693319

Motivation

Database of soldiers Hultschin Region presented to Wehrmacht. --Daniel Baránek (talk) 13:17, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Tobias1984 Vojtěch Dostál YjM Jklamo Walter Klosse Sintakso Matěj Suchánek JAn Dudík Skim Frettie Jura1913 Mormegil Jedudedek marv1N Sapfan Daniel Baránek Draceane Michal Josef Špaček (WMCZ) The photonaut Hartasek Zelenymuzik Gumruch Shadster Dænča M.Rejha Janek Jan Kameníček Eva Vele Linda.jansova Lukša Packa Fukejs Hugo Xmorave2 J.Broukal Lenkakrizova Steam Flow Pavel Bednařík Sanqui

Notified participants of WikiProject Czech Republic --Daniel Baránek (talk) 13:37, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

•  Question Daniel Baránek: Are we sure that this project has sound credentials regarding historical accuracy? The design and parts of the German text (weirdly different to the Czech text) seem to lack the appropriate distance to Nazi ideology, for example:
  • It is heavily implied that the Waffen-SS (Q153626) wasn’t “infamous” at all („überwiegend in der Wehrmacht, manche aber auch in der Waffen SS (nicht verwechseln mit der berühtigten Allgemeine SS“) which of course is an outrageous view not supported by the facts.
  • It is conceded that some soldiers volunteered but at the same time nothing is said about the ideological motivations to go to war. At one point the text says that soldiers “simply wanted to survive and return home to their families“ (Der Wunsch bei den den Allen war einfach: Überleben und zu ihren Familien nach Hause zurückkehren.) which seems like a gross misconception about at least a sizable part of Wehrmacht soldiers and especially members of the Waffen-SS.
  • I didn’t find a single line about the victims of Nazi atrocities which is especially worrying in light of the role of the Wehrmacht and especially the Waffen-SS in those crimes.

  Maybe there’s a problem with language proficiency (the German text is probably not written by a native speaker) but I see quite a few red flags so maybe you could check the background of the project? --Emu (talk) 13:48, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

  Sidenote: The top sponsor according to the list of sponsors seels stuff like this which – in spite of the disclaimer – seems extremely worrying to me. --Emu (talk) 13:53, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

  @Emu: I understand Your suspicions. You are right that some of formulations lack historical/critical distance, however I would not fear of Nazi ideology propaganda. The content of the site is created by an association of mainly enthusiasts, not by historians. However, there is also historian PhDr. Jiří Neminář who works in the state institution (Muzeum Hlučínska) and he is trained historian (Charles University). If we have any problem with any formulation, I can send him an e-mail and ask him for explanation or edit.

  Ad motivations to go to war: the main motivation was that after the annexation of Hultschin Region to the Third Reich, the population of the region were considered German citizens and as such they simply had to enlist in the army. Generally, the population welcomed joining the Reich, maybe they welcomed the war but only until the very moment, when they were ordered to be drafted to the army and to become part of the war. I would not contest the sentence Der Wunsch... Überleben...

  Ad the calendar: Right, the calendar seems worrying. However, we are discussing there the content of website, not products createdy with somebody else (Tomáš Moch, the operator of the Prajský patriot company, is not listed among collaborators of the Hultschiner Soldaten project.)

  Finally, the reason for creating this proposal was to link to the individual soldiers. I consider the soldiers' personal data credible as the creators of the database evidently use sources from Bundesarchiv. --Daniel Baránek (talk) 14:42, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

  @Daniel Baránek Thank you for your answer. Since you are a trained historian from Czechia with a special expertise for this time period, I trust your judgement better than mine. But it might indeed be a good idea to tell the project’s enthusiasts that the German text could need some work to be taken seriously in Germany or Austria … --Emu (talk) 16:01, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

   Support even when the website could use some work. In addition to not being well worded in comparing the Waffen SS with Allgemeine SS, it also misspells "berüchtigten" as "berühtigten".

  The pages about the individual users seem to be very fact based and good sources for those facts. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 19:06, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

@Emu, ChristianKl: After correspondence with Dr. Jiří Neminář, I withdraw my proposal. Unfortunately, Emu's concerns are justified. Neminář's position in the Hultschiner Soldaten project is very difficult. He unfortunately confirmed me that the "red flags" are not only awkward formulations or translations, but rather reveal the revisionist views of some members of the project. Although the project has great potential in terms of factual content, Emu is right that we should not contribute to its promotion because the factual content is set in a very problematic context. --Daniel Baránek (talk) 10:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

@Daniel Baránek I’m sorry to hear that my hunch turned out to be (at least in part) correct. Thank you for reaching out to Dr. Neminář and follow up on my observations! --Emu (talk) 16:22, 6 March 2023 (UTC)