Wikidata:Property proposal/ID právnické osoby vedené Ministerstvem kultury ČR

Legal entity registered by the Ministry of Culture of the Czech Republic ID

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Authority control

Done: Legal entity registered by the Ministry of Culture of the Czech Republic ID (P10519) (Talk and documentation)

Description	ID of the legal (church/religious) entity registered by the Czech Ministry of Culture
Represents	Register of registered legal entities maintained by the Ministry of Culture (Q81163363)
Data type	External identifier
Domain	item
Allowed values	[0-9]+
Example 1	Roman Catholic parish of Kolín (Q10514904) → 1938
Example 2	Jewish community in Ostrava (Q61685723) → 967
Example 3	Orthodox church community in Frýdlant in Bohemia (Q84344810) → 1205
Source	http://www-cns.mkcr.cz/cns_internet/
External links	Use in sister projects: [ar] • [de] • [en] • [es] • [fr] • [he] • [it] • [ja] • [ko] • [nl] • [pl] • [pt] • [ru] • [sv] • [vi] • [zh] • [commons] • [species] • [wd] • [en.wikt] • [fr.wikt].
Planned use	Add the identificator to all possible subjects.
Number of IDs in source	cca 3000
Expected completeness	always incomplete (Q21873886)
Formatter URL	http://www-cns.mkcr.cz/cns_internet/CNS/Vypis_uplny_cpo.aspx?id_subj=$1&str_zpet=Detail_cpo.aspx
Applicable "stated in"-value	Register of registered legal entities maintained by the Ministry of Culture (Q81163363)
Distinct-values constraint	yes

Motivation

ID of web page containing official information about church and religious legal entities in the Czech Republic. Daniel Baránek (talk) 19:17, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Notified participants of WikiProject Czech Republic --Daniel Baránek (talk) 19:17, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why should we need a new specialized identifier when the database can be queried using the general Czech Registration ID (IČO) (P4156)? --Mormegil (talk) 19:41, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Because of referencing. Is this reason enough? --Daniel Baránek (talk) 20:56, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Daniel Baránek, Mormegil: I don't follow what you mean, can you explain further? ArthurPSmith (talk) 15:37, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Mormegil, ArthurPSmith: For example references in Přemysl Ivan Hadrava (Q106601378). Czech Registration ID (IČO) (P4156) is useless in such case. --Daniel Baránek (talk) 17:04, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Daniel Baránek: Sure, for references, you wouldn’t use IČO, you’d use reference URL (P854) exactly like it is done there already.

@ArthurPSmith: The database contains the register of religious organizations in the Czech Republic, maintained by the Ministry of Culture. The online database is accessible under URLs containing some non-semantic ID of the corresponding database record, which is what is proposed here. However, the religious organizations are primarily identified (like all other organizations in CZ) by their Czech Registration ID (IČO) (P4156) and the database contains the IČO as well, and allows searching by the IČO (see the search form or the list, with rows identified by IČO), without the need for a specialized meaningless identifier.

--Mormegil (talk) 20:20, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, most of IDs are "meaningless" (just numbers/letters used by external authority/database only). If I think out Your argument thoroughly, so You can use described at URL (P973) instead of almost all IDs and we do not need almost any ID. However, if I understand it well, one of the purpose of IDs is to make connecting entities with external authority easier and to simplify referencing. --Daniel Baránek (talk) 15:30, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, that's nice example of use Czech Registration ID (IČO) (P4156) in different databases. Because there is possibility to link to this database via Czech Registration ID (IČO) (P4156). I don't think that this id is useful. Maybe if Ministry publish database as open data with this id. Skim (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is a possibility to link to this database via Czech Registration ID (IČO) (P4156)? I do not see it. I can only see, that You can search manually subjects by IČO. However, You cannot link to subject through some web-link with IČO (something like http://....?search_ico=00000). Or I do not only know about it? --Daniel Baránek (talk) 13:04, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Daniel Baránek: Oh, not at all, not all IDs are meaningless. The most useful IDs have meaning outside of URLs to some online database. Generally, a useful ID is something used not only as a piece of URL, but also used by other entities, so that multiple databases can be interconnected, something permanent which does not change on every website update. As an example, see my arguments in a recent proposal: there is a registry of periodicals in the Czech Republic. Every public periodical receives a registration number by the Ministry of Culture. These registration numbers are required to be printed in the periodicals’ impressum. So you can look at a magazine you bought and find it in the registry. On the other hand, the URLs of the online periodical database do not include this registration number. They are indexed by a meaningless ID, probably generated as an autoincremented primary key in the database implementing the registry web viewer. And the URLs change with reimplementations of the database. Therefore, there are two identifiers: one is meaningless, random, non-permanent; the other is visible in the real world, permanent, and official. We should use the latter one.

Another example: The authority database of NKČR uses numeric identifiers like 000004031. But those are system identifiers of the underlying database. For external usage, the authority records are identified using an alphanumeric code (“jk01021023”), used by VIAF, other libraries, etc., even though VIAF and other libraries have their local identifiers in their databases. Again, one is a technical ID used by one database, the other is a permanent global identifier. We use the latter one.

In this case, the real stable identifier by which religious organizations are identified is their IČO. We already have that on Wikidata. --Mormegil (talk) 14:29, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Mormegil: Thanks for Your explanation. Of course, there is a difference between IČO and the proposed ID. However, there is not such difference between the proposed ID and an NKČR alphanumeric code. The proposed ID is an stable ID, it has not changed for years. If I use the analogy with NKČR, so the proposed ID is both, for external and internal use. The proposed ID is already used externally for example in cs:Šablona:Infobox - farnost. The thing is, that we cannot add third-party formatter URL (P3303) to Czech Registration ID (IČO) (P4156), because it is not possible to query MKČR database using IČO. --Daniel Baránek (talk) 14:51, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Sapfan (talk) 21:16, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support Jedudědek (talk) 10:15, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support, an important property for the Czech Republic.--Arbnos (talk) 15:12, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Zelenymuzik (talk) 13:57, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To me, this looks like an internal identifier that exists (as in, has any relevance) only within the database itself. Honestly, it looks like a primary key in their database that's used just in the URL, nowhere else. As far as I know, it is not used to actually identify an entity anywhere, . This can be illustrated in multiple ways:
- a) If you open a random list of entities they make available, you'll see a table with two columns: an identifier, and a name. The identifier is not the primary key in their database, but IČO.
- b) if you open a record for an entity, the ID is found only in the URL, nowhere in the list
It looks that even the database doesn't use the ID to identify the entities it has, and because of that, I don't think we should use it either. If for nothing else, then because it is not guaranteed to stay stable. --Martin Urbanec (talk) 11:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose example links currently time out. I'm not convinced of the stability of the site. --99of9 (talk) 10:51, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, the links seem to be fine and load very fast on my PC. Maybe there was some provisional problem or there was problem on your side. I have never had any problem with the site. --Daniel Baránek (talk) 14:32, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm timing out as well. Might be regional or some stupid "protection" configuration. — HELLKNOWZ ∣ TALK ∣ enWiki 17:45, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's still timing out for me. I'm in Australia. --99of9 (talk) 07:07, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support —MasterRus21thCentury (talk) 07:14, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Daniel Baránek, Mormegil, ArthurPSmith, Sapfan, Jedudedek, Arbnos: Done: Legal entity registered by the Ministry of Culture of the Czech Republic ID (P10519) —MasterRus21thCentury (talk) 19:43, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]