Wikidata:WP EMEW/Manors/Data Modelling

New questions, issues to think about, options, or issues that particular options might cause, that can be summarised in a single line, should be added to this page.

More detailed, in-depth discussions can then proceed on the 'data model discussion' page. Feel free to improve the one-line summaries of open issues on this page.

Key class:

manor estate (Q2116450): estate in land to which is incident the right to hold a manorial court

All such items (in the UK) should have a UK National Archives ID (P3029) value with subject has role (P2868) =manor estate (Q2116450).

Items in the UK without a UK National Archives ID (P3029) identifier, or not on the Manorial Documents Register should not have instance of (P31) = manor estate (Q2116450).

TODO: Create an item for the MDR, so we can require that items have it as the object of a described by source (P1343) statement.

according to this class wiki item, may have related items:

has part(s) (P527) : manor house (Q879050): historically, the main residence of the lord of the manor
has part(s) (P527) : manor park (Q54969670): park surrounding a manor

should also have

location (P276) -> nearest settlement
located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) -> (modern) civil parish; ? use also for ancient parish (with object has role (P3831) qualifier?)

Examples edit

The item for the manor estate (Q2116450) should be a different item to item for building or settlement, eg:

Newnham Paddox edit

NB: not a manor -- not on TNA list


Newnham Paddox (Q105609346): estate in Warwickshire, England, owned by the Feilding family since 1433		estate (Q12292478): comprises the buildings and supporting farmland and woods of a very large property	(inverse)
has part(s) (P527)	Newnham Paddox House (Q104783296): historic house in Warwickshire, England, demolished 1952	English country house (Q1343246): larger mansion estate in England, UK	location (P276)
has part(s) (P527)	Newnham Paddox (Q104783214): historic park and garden in the United Kingdom	Grade II listed park and garden (Q104783251): class of listed park in England and Wales	location (P276)
located in the administrative territorial entity (P131)	Monks Kirby (Q2122948): village in Warwickshire, England, UK	village (Q532): small clustered human settlement smaller than a town civil parish (Q1115575): territorial designation and lowest tier of local government in England, UK	(none)
owned by (P127)	Feilding family (Q105609334): English aristocratic family	family (Q8436): group of people affiliated by consanguinity, law, affinity, or co-residence	owner of (P1830)

questions edit

See Data Modelling Discussion for responses

Feel free to add new questions here, issues to think about, options, or issues that particular options might cause. Beyond that, detailed discussions and critiques may live better on the talk pages

The following questions or points of discussion should be resolved. Please check them off and add to the documentation as we achieve consensus. Responses to these questions should go on the Discussion page.

Grade II listed park and garden (Q104783251) -- looks like a listing classification, is it appropriate as a value for P31 ?
location (P276) or part of (P361) for inverse ?
owned by (P127) (== "Lordship" ?) -> families? or individuals?
significant event (P793) - what sorts of significant events for manors ?
coordinate location (P625) ?? - according to TNA it may not be possible to place a manor much below the level of a parish. (A limited number straddle more than one parish, but most manors live within a single parish). So should we have P625s on them at all, or instead get users used to having to query for the (much better defined) P625s of some related item - eg the parish/settlement, or the principal house (which conceivably might not exist). Jheald (talk) 11:58, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
documents: to an archive, a manor is first and foremost an entity that creates documents. See eg the TNA MDR entry for Kittisford, linked below (F253847). So we need to think

(i) what is/are the properties for the relationship between manors and documents;

(ii) what documents will we want to create items for? My instinct on the latter is to go slow. Definitely create model

general Qs edit

can a manor cease to be a manor, but continue as an estate? what if the "manor house" (of the estate) and the manor are not contemporaneous?

I will have previously called some things manor houses that probably weren't, not appreciating the precise definition. Kneejerk response is start and finish times on the manor statements but we have to decide what they become when they aren't a manor.DrThneed (talk) 01:33, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kittisford edit

National Archives: F253847 -- en:Manor of Kittisford -- (no VCH)


Manor of Kittisford (Q21061823): historic manor near Wellington in Somerset, England		(missing)	(inverse)
(missing)	Kittisford Barton (Q17555635): house in Kittisford, Somerset, England, UK	architectural structure (Q811979): human-designed and -made structure	(missing)
(missing)	Kittisford (Q21061464): village, former civil parish and manor in Somerset, UK	village (Q532): small clustered human settlement smaller than a town civil parish (Q1115575): territorial designation and lowest tier of local government in England, UK (end 1933) manor estate (Q2116450): estate in land to which is incident the right to hold a manorial court	(missing)

comments edit

showing items as found. Minimal information on Manor of Kittisford (Q21061823), not even a P31. manor estate (Q2116450) still identifying the village/parish item

Other sources for information relevant to manors edit

Early ownership data may be available via http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/
Victoria County History entries (British History Online VCH ID (P3628))
Mapping the Medieval Countryside : http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/ -- medieval English records of inquisition post mortem (Q6036904) from c. 1236 to 1509.
Text sources. (-> described by source (P1343)). Not sure how strong our coverage is for eg standard county works

to be digested edit

Manors TNA list: [1] Current data: https://w.wiki/zce CONTACT: Jo Pugh tweet

May be more lurking in en:Category:Former_manors_in_Somerset & up the tree -- investigate with PetScan -> tag as manors -> but then create separate items, if the item is also a settlement, or a building?

ISSUE: Appropriate relationship with settlement? And with the actual building (often later). Probably just create new items for almost all of them, use location (P276) to link to settlements, headquarters location (P159) (?) to link to manor building?

Example:

from main chat edit

I'm curious about the best way to model a historic manor or estate and heritage items within the estate. My first inclination is that a listed park or building should be part of (P361) the estate (and the inverse), as well as link to it via location (P276). Here's an example set of items:

Also, we should probably record residence (P551) for the Earls of Denbigh (and their predecessor barons) at Newnham Paddox - should the residence be the estate or the house?

How might we model all of these relationships? - PKM (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

slight hesitancy on the residence, you can own it and be lord of it and never set foot there, let alone live in it. So I'd want to know that the source actually says they lived there before adding residence. Ownership is a little easier to be clear about. As for whether estate or house, if you chose house, you would need to match up past houses and present houses with dates of ownership/residence. Most demolished ones don't exist in Wikidata yet, in my experience. Whereas presumably the estate stays more consistent through the ages.DrThneed (talk) 01:39, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

+1 on all of this. In my pet project of Newnham Paddox, there is also a "new" Newnham Paddox House built in the 1970s (no Wikidata item as yet). - PKM (talk) 22:05, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]