Wikidata talk:WikiProject Performing arts/Data sources/CH

Comment

Good work. Interesting reading. I should probably re-read it in more detail.

Maybe for the season start mentioned at Wikidata:WikiProject_Performing_arts/Data_sources/CH#Theatre_Seasons, Wikidata:Property proposal/season starts could work for you as well. --
--- Jura 09:27, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

FRBR part

Hi Beat Estermann,

This is a very deep and dense documentation and it seems globally very good. Just one point about FRBR where I'm not sure to follow you. Why re-introducing the manifestation level again ? (the project Book and many libraries get rid of it as it was too complicated) I totally agree that Work and Expression level should be separated but why not consider Expression level to be equivalent to our Edition level? Do you have any example where it wouldn't work (for instance do you have the need for a Expression and a Manifestation level item?).

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 22:34, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi VIGNERON,

I guess we could look into this on the basis of the larger dataset from the Swiss Theatre Collection. The problem I see at the moment with using the "edition" type is that it implies (at least in my interpretation) that the adaptation of the work has been edited/published, which does not need to be the case for adaptations/translations of theatre plays that are used for the purpose of a performing arts production. If "edition" were to encompass "unpublished version, adaptation, translation" it would probably work. What are the chances of getting community consensus with regard to an extension of the definition of "edition"? - Furthermore, in order to express the relationships between the various versions, adaptations, and translations, we would most likely need properties that are more sophisticated than just "based on". I would need to look into this in more detail based on the examples from the larger dataset. --Beat Estermann (talk) 13:38, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi Beat Estermann,

Hmm good question, as our edition level is the merge of both expression^frbr and manifestation^frbr levels, and that in FRBR being edited/published is not a criterium (more precisely: FRBR used the relation realization and embodiement and they both refers to make the work physical, no need to go through a editor or a publisher). Maybe you should ask on the Wikidata:WikiProject Books.

Yeah, it seems that "based on" indeed too wide for your needs.

When you'll have examples, I'll be happy to help and give a look.

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 14:00, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Property proposals

Which properties do you need to start your uploads?
--- Jura 09:51, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi @Jura1: Thanks for your help! - Some of the crucial ones already have been created. Before we launch the bulk ingest, it would be good to have also Wikidata:Property_proposal/Creative_work#location_of_first_performance created. And we need a decision regarding Wikidata:Property_proposal/Creative_work#within_time_period; though, if there is no consensus regarding the creation of a new property, I will just go ahead and tweak time period (P2348) as has been suggested. "representation of" can wait for now. "first representation of" can be skipped. --Beat Estermann (talk) 07:48, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Looks like it's mostly done. If you want the "season start" one, you'd need to comment there.
--- Jura 19:53, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

English item labels, e.g. at Q43689202

The item had "Eine kleine Stadt (Our town)" as label. I'm not entirely convinced by this approach. Personally, I'd leave the English label empty, but some prefer to complete it with the original title (in German here). I'm not aware of other items that use the form "<title> (<translation>"). I assume that "Our town" is not the English title of the production, but the work it's based on.
--- Jura 07:26, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi Jura, you are right in your assumption that the title of the production was "Eine kleine Stadt". "Our town" is the title of the work it is based on in English, which in this case also happens to be the original title of the work. If you imagine a list of productions of theatrical works in English (e.g. in enWP), how would you list them? - I guess my preference would be for:

• Eine kleine Stadt (Our Town) --> production in German, original name of the play in English (Thornton Wilder)
• L'école des femmes (The School for Wives) --> production and original name of the play in French (Molière)
• Der Hauptmann von Köpenick (The Captain of Köpenick) --> production and original name of the play in German (Carl Zuckmayer)
• Маскарад (Masquerade) --> production and original name of the play in Russian (Lermontov)
• Դիմակահանդես (Masquerade) --> (hypothetical) production in Armenian, original name of the play in Russian (Lermontov)

I definitely think that we eventually should provide a label in all the languages; and I'm for the moment rather convinced that we should localize the label by providing the translation in the target language in brackets. If there is a translation (or even original) of the play, I would indicate its title in the target language - even if it is not a literal translation of the name of the production (e.g. in the case of "Eine kleine Stadt" - "Our Town", and not "Our Little Town"). If there is no published translation, I would just provide a literary translation of the title of the production.

When it comes to literary works, a different approach may seem more natural, e.g. providing the name of the translation first, and the original name in brackets, possibly along with a transliteration for non-Latin scripts. I don't think we need to apply the same naming pattern to all types of items, but orient ourselves with regard to the most likely use scenarios.

--Beat Estermann (talk) 08:27, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

• Help:Label#Labels_in_English provides the basis. I don't think it supports any of the dual naming you attempt. You can add any translation (or original title) as alias, but the most import element is obviously the title in the statements.
  --- Jura 08:53, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I don't think that page even attempts to treat the cases we have been discussing here. But I would agree that we eventually need to take our discussion to the talk page over there in order to get some consensus on how to further proceed with labelling performing arts productions. [To Do] --Beat Estermann (talk) 09:04, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Title property

Q43689202 uses native label (P1705)} instead of title (P1476). The later is more appropriate for works/most items that are not geographic locations.
--- Jura 07:46, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, we could apply title (P1476) also to works of the performing arts. We should however also adapt the description of the property accordingly. [To Do] --Beat Estermann (talk) 07:59, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure what change would be needed (at least in English), but we could include a sample from this field. --
--- Jura 08:20, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

I've adapted the label in en, fr, de, and ru to explicitly cover works of the performing arts. We may again need to look into it when we start ingesting more data about specific adaptations, translations, or version of works (frbr:Expression/Manifestation), as we should specify whether title (P1476) refers to the original title of the frbr:Work or the original title of the frbr:Expression/Manifestation. In my opinion, the latter should be the case, but the present description of the property might suggest otherwise. --Beat Estermann (talk) 08:49, 21 January 2018 (UTC)