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Wikidata:WikiProject Association football/Discussion about properties/Seasons

< Wikidata:WikiProject Association football‎ | Discussion about properties

Seasons edit

Properties that all seasons must have or must not have (some other properties must be on some of those competitions, they are not written in this page).

Useful examples: Wikidata:WikiProject Association football/Discussion about properties/Season example

instance of (P31) edit

instance of (P31) --> sports season (Q27020041)

Example:

Some discussions:

Discussion
  Question Aren’t just « seasons » competitions ? It seem to me that they perfectly fit in the recurring event scheme defined in WikiProject recurring events. Hence it’s enough to just say
This has the benefit of reducing the number of statements, and of properties, while beeing consistent with the recurring event global scheme.
To check in an infobox’ code or in a query if an item is a « sport season » (would be useful to give a definition of a « season » used in this proposal, by the way) it’s enough to use the property path wdt:P31/wdt:P279* Q9448. This is doable in lua by Module:PropertyPath or in SPARQL quite easily as is.
So I don’t think it’s the right thing to do. author  TomT0m / talk page
1) That is wrong. Premier league is not a season. Is a competition. 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) is a season.
2) Why not  ?

Xaris333 (talk) 22:07, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

1) You don’t get it. This means « every Premier League (Q9448) is a season ». Not « Premier League (Q9448) is a season ». As 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) is an instance of Premier League (Q9448) and « every Premier League (Q9448) is a season », we get « 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) is a season » which is your conclusion. So we actually agree. And we don’t have to actually put the statement as it’s already said. This avoids a statement in a few items. author  TomT0m / talk page
2) See Help:Classification. Because 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) is a specific competition, localized in time and space. Hence it’s not a class of events, it’s an event by itself. On the other hand, Q9448 is not a single event … it’s a type of competition, that occurs every year, with many editions. And 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) is an example of element of that type - just as you are an example of human. This makes instance of (P31) the property to use. Rule of thumb : try to read « every 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) is a Premier League (Q9448) ». This does not make sense. This means you can’t use subclass of (P279). author  TomT0m / talk page 00:40, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
1) But you wrote that . And then "try to read « every 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) is a Premier League (Q9448) ». This does not make sense." That does not make sense.
2) I disagree. sports season (Q27020041)'s description: "season of a sports league or competition, generally a specific one year period". With you are saying that Q9448 is a class (subset) of "season of a sports league". But is not. Q9448 is the league, the competition. And is a class (subset) of association football league (Q15991303). Xaris333 (talk) 02:59, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Xaris333 : OK, I’ll do it slowly. A way to read in common language any subclass of (P279) statement like « A subclass of B » is « every A is a B ». Rereads the description of subclass of (P279) if you are not convinced. So the statement means in english « every 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) is a Premier League (Q9448) ».
I’ll try in the following to avoid the word « league » as it as several senses, for example the frwiki article about league says « Une ligue sportive est un regroupement de plusieurs associations ou clubs de sport amateurs ou professionnels qui s'affrontent au sein d'une compétition commune. Parfois, le terme désigne la compétition elle-même, comme pour la Ligue des champions de l'UEFA ou la Ligue Europa. » - « a sport league is a group of associations or clubs that compete into the same competition. Sometime the competition itself is named a league »
In the first sense, a league is an organization, like the « Ligue professionnelle de football » in france or « Liga Nacional de Fútbol Profesional (Q4453842) » organizes … the first and second divisions. So actually that’s two competitions per year. La « Primera división » et la « Segunda división » are two leagues organized by the same league … confusing is’nt it ?
So I’ll only use the word « competition » . It’s has its own difficulties. Let’s try to sort them out so that we all agree. Per enwiki « Competition is, in general, a contest ». As 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) is a contest, this is a competition. Premier League (Q9448) is a kind of competition. We are encountering the problem of natural language where « car » sometime means the same specific object, and sometime denotes the whole class of the same vehicle model - see (the introduction of) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type%E2%80%93token_distinction .
To clarify, I’ll use the terms « competition » to denote items like 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) and « competition kind » to denote items like Ligue 1 (Q13394)      and to avoid the polysemy problem. In the example of the enwiki about token / type distinction, this is the same as solving the ambiguity by discriminating «car» and «car model».
Note that the item sports competition (Q13406554) is a subclass of event (Q1656682). Example of events include « the french revolution » or « superbowl 2015 ». These are not event kinds, these are events. Now I think you take the word « competition » in the sense « competition kind ». But no. Each « season » is a sport competition as each season is an event (
⟨ Season ⟩ subclass of (P279)   ⟨ event ⟩
- any season is an event), as the french revolution is an event (french revolution instance of event). And the « Ligue 1 » in france is an «event kind ». In general, « stuffs » and « kind of stuffs » are to be linked with « instance of » and « kind of stuffs » to « kind of stuffs » with « subclass of »
Now take your affirmation : «Q9448 is the league, the competition. And is a class (subset) of association football league (Q15991303) » We agree on that. What we may disagree however is that 2010–11 Ligue 1 (Q725987)      is a competion. And Premier League (Q9448) is a competition kind and NOT a competition. This allows us to use my model. This is consistent to the definition of « sport competition » unlike yours. author  TomT0m / talk page 13:54, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. "The 2016–17 Premier League was the 25th season of the Premier League, the top English professional league for association football clubs". 2016-17 Premier League is a season. A season of a competitions, of a league. That competition is Premier League. Xaris333 (talk) 02:30, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Understood, but … where does this opinion come from ? To me all these information will be present anyway if we just say «  2016–17 Premier League instance of Premier league ». Just simpler. I’ll stop here since the discussion is staled and you just keep saying « I disagree ». Not a sign of good faith. author  TomT0m / talk page 10:05, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
From English Wikipedia [1]. That's the term they use to describe seasons. And that what many other Wikipedias and thousands of users above the world write in their language. Xaris333 (talk) 10:54, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Does not mean I’m wrong or that they’ll not prefer a more economic statement setup. We don’t have to write the english sentences « as is » here. Still possible to generate automatically that sentence with my setup if you like. author  TomT0m / talk page 11:35, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thought a little bit more about the word « league » and its different meanings. I have a suggestion : create items for each of the senses.

  • One item for the team of clubs that participate
  • One item for the competition

We would have

⟨ Ligue 1 (association) ⟩ organize Search ⟨ Ligue 1 (competition) ⟩

to make the link between the two. That way we break the ambiguity on the word « league » that sometime design the association and sometime the competition or the competition class.

  • ⟨ Ligue 1 (association) ⟩ instance of (P31)   ⟨ sport league association ⟩
    with as description of « sport league association » : association of teams that organize a competition each year. It’s member are the teams, in preferred rank the current one. Each single competition organized by a league is called a « season » of that league in common language.
  • ⟨ Ligue 1 (competition) ⟩ subclass of (P279)   ⟨ National football Championship ⟩
    and
    ⟨ Ligue 1 (competition) ⟩ instance of (P31)   ⟨ Periodic event ⟩
     : That breaks the ambiguity of a « competition » as a single event with a winner and a competition as a class of events. author  TomT0m / talk page 12:34, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I thinks is confusing. We have Ligue de Football Professionnel (Q1331838) which organizes Ligue 1, and is under French Football Federation (Q244750), and now Ligue 1 (association)? Remember that in many countries, the football association are the organizerο of the championship, not a "league" like Ligue 1. Xaris333 (talk) 02:29, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Organise may not be the right property. But I still open this proposition with a better relation. maybe « participate in » author  TomT0m / talk page 12:17, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@TomT0m: Your proposal to use 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732) instance of (P31) Premier League (Q9448) will allocate multiple meanings to Premier League (Q9448). It would be a class of seasons but also an instance of a league. Independant on the defintion of a league, this leads to confusion since normally "1 item = 1 meaning". The approach with sports season of league or competition (P3450) has the advantage that the multi allocation of meanings to one item can be prevented and that it follows the same structure as in other domains where entities appear in series (not only time series). For example:
and 67th Berlin International Film Festival (Q27885683) part of the series (P179) Berlin International Film Festival (Q130871)
and Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (Q43361) part of the series (P179) Harry Potter (Q8337). --Pasleim (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Pasleim: See my proposal above to disambiguate the league as a competition and the league as an organisation.
Very good example. Another one:
and Friends, season 1 (Q975761) part of the series (P179) Friends (Q79784) (like )
It's the same structure. Xaris333 (talk) 11:48, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Pasleim: Mmm then just put a step above and assimilate sport to a TV show. Just use « season of » then ;). Although I don’ think this actually clarifies the meaning of a « league ». Clearly, in france the « league 1 » is a championship. « championnat de France de football professionnel masculin » You don’t express this in Wikidata in your model. Saying there is an item « ligue 1 (championship) » (or whatever) does. This does not prevent other items to have the same name, as « league » actually have a lot of meaning. Then each of its instances are championships if this item is a subclass. The model is more expressive and requires less statement to say the more things. author  TomT0m / talk page 12:17, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]


sports season of league or competition (P3450) edit

Example:

Discussion
Per my answer on instance of (P31) above, I think this property should not be used at all. author  TomT0m / talk page 16:29, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

country (P17) edit

See above

One discussion may help: Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2017/01#Teams of countries of the United Kingdom

Example:

edition number (P393) edit

Example:

Discussion:

P155 and P156 edit

(except the first season and the last season which have only one of them)

Example:

Example:

One previous discussion: Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2017/01#P155 and P156

Discussion:

These should be as qualifiers to edition number (P393) (or somehow else). Or probably better to P3450, with P393 also used as qualifier. --Edgars2007 (talk) 04:02, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Edgars2007 : Not necessarily. Any periodic event has a previous one. Those competitions are periodic so I think this is in the scope of WikiProject Periodic events and solved once and for all there. So It may be unfortunate to use with sports season of league or competition (P3450) as no other type of recurring event will use this property. In the setup I propose we link 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732)      with Premier League (Q9448)      with « instance of ». As we know that it’s a recurring event because
⟨ Premier League (Q9448)      ⟩ instance of (P31)   ⟨ recurring event ⟩
, we know there is a sequence in its instances. So we once more don’t need sports season of league or competition (P3450) at all. No opinion on making a single statement for the number and the preceding and next event. author  TomT0m / talk page 11:54, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Edgars2007: Like that?

Xaris333 (talk) 11:58, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

sport (P641) edit

sport (P641): see above

Example:

start time (P580) and end time (P582) edit

Example:

⟨ 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732)      ⟩ start time (P580)   ⟨ 8 August 2015 ⟩

Example:

⟨ 2015–16 Premier League (Q19346732)      ⟩ end time (P582)   ⟨ 17 May 2016 ⟩

Discussion:

organizer (P664) edit

Example:

Discussion:

participating team (P1923) edit

Example:

Discussion:

winner (P1346) edit

Example:

Discussion:

number of participants (P1132) edit

Example:

part of (P361) edit

Example:

Discussion: I think is wrong but because I have find it in some items, I am writing it.

I do also think it's redundant. Only because you find it in items, doesn't mean it's right. --Edgars2007 (talk) 03:59, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
don't use part of (P361), it's redundant to sports season of league or competition (P3450) --Pasleim (talk) 09:33, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Others edit

Others properties that may use on items: sponsor (P859), league level below (P2500), league level above (P2499), league points system (P3195), number of matches played/races/starts (P1350), number of points/goals/set scored (P1351), time period (P2348), qualifies for event (P3085), relegated (P2882), promoted (P2881), broadcast by (P3301), statistical leader (P3279), rules for classification (P3822) (and points for (P1358), number of points/goals conceded (P1359), number of points/goals/set scored (P1351), number of losses (P1356), number of draws/ties (P1357), number of wins (P1355), number of wins (P1355), ranking (P1352), home venue (P115) as qualifiers of participating team (P1923)).

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