Wikidata talk:Lexicographical data/Documentation/Languages

Subpage names

Not all languages have ISO codes, so it's probably better to use something else as the name? —Rua (mew) 12:39, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

@Rua: good point, can we say "use BCP 47 code"? The current pages could keep their name - as BCP and ISO have the same code - and for future page about languages without ISO code can use BCP extension. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 13:56, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Common model for these page

Hi,

I created the first page last year, about Breton (because it's can be quite a tricky language and documentation is often needed). I see that we now have 8 pages thanks to @Kolja21, Mahir256, Lexicolover, Rua, MarcoSwart, KaMan: thank you very much!

Now, it may be time to think more globally to improve these page, for instance having a common model. Obviously, each language is different and not all page should be the same but some general pattern (at least a common general table of contents) are shared and could be used on all page. For instance, I used the Databox, maybe it's enough but maybe we can have a specific template/module.

What do you think? Do you have any idea, suggestion, things that you see and like/dislike on other pages?

Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 14:15, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

@Mahir256, Bodhisattwa, Kolja21, Lexicolover, So9q, Rua: any idea, comment or remark?

At the very least, I've just added the Databox to all existing pages. For the lexic-o-days, I'm planning to work on Wikidata:Lexicographical data/Documentation/Languages/fr.

PS: can someone unmark for translation the page about Breton (and maybe delete the translation subpages)? (it's totally not finished, I'm not sure it will ever be "finished" one day)

Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 16:53, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: The page has been unmarked and the subpages deleted. Mahir256 (talk) 17:09, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Following this idea after an interview with Dan Shick (WMDE), I added a very very crude first try of an input box "Forms to help creating a new page". I created the corresponding template: Template:Wikidata:Lexicographical data/Documentation/Languages. This is still very basic, with some suggested section titles but this suggestion should be discussed and probably reworked, and more pre-loaded information are needed (like a common introduction ?). @Mahir256, Bodhisattwa, Kolja21, Lexicolover, So9q, Rua: @Iwan.Aucamp, MarcoSwart, KaMan, Robert Važan, Afaz: all comments/remarks/whatever are welcome. Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 09:33, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I found the document about Slovak language to be helpful.--Afaz (talk) 15:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: Template like this will have one of three effects: (1) contributors will be discouraged from creating the page, because it's too much work to do at once, (2) many language pages will mostly consist of useless boilerplate from the template without actual information, or (3) the template will be cut down to fight the first two problems, rendering it useless. I think it's better to stick with standard wiki stubs that are then organically expanded as needed. What you probably really want is a set of common rules for structuring language pages. These rules should be expressed in a documentation page, not in a template, and they should be implemented by editing existing language pages after they have grown organically. If the goal is to encourage construction and use of language documentation, then I think giving these pages more visibility is what's really needed. I am rather diligent in studying docs and I almost missed this place even though it's one of the first things would-be contributor should see. — Robert Važan (talk) 19:10, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: I think a template like that (once more details are included) could be helpful for some people, if it is paired with a "Best Practices Example". I.e. Perhaps change the text above the form-field from "Forms to help creating a new page:" - into - "You can use this form to generate an empty skeleton page, and/or follow the good examples of [link] or [link], to create a new page for your language(s)." -- Also +1 to Robert Važan's comment about these subpages needing better visibility (but I imagine that Dan Shick already has that in mind!). -- Hope that helps. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 20:53, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@Robert Važan, Quiddity (WMF): true, it's a chicken and egg problem but I put the cart before the horse a bit. Ideally, we should already have a suggested common structure for these page before I create this template (which is a pre-load template for creation not a template used on the page itself, so option 3) is not a problem, I would say it's expected) and indeed this common ground should be simple enough: to be true for most language and to not be "too much work". Still we can improve the structure now and update the template afterward, as I said the template is just a draft that need to be improved (and will grow organically like any wiki page) feel tree to improve it. Quiddity: I update the sentence you mentionned and used Slovak as an example. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 09:44, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: Okay, let's settle on preload template. I think most people will leave it initially empty, which is desirable. The idea is that this is a scaffolding into which the page grows over time rather than a form to fill all at once. A one-sentence note instructing contributors about this would help. Regarding page structure, content of "General information" should be probably in the unnamed introductory paragraph, which should just link to Wikipedia article about the language and perhaps to language regulator and other defining resources if applicable. "Resources" at the end would repeat the links and add more. Section "Lemma" should explain choice of lemma if it is not obvious. I would also add "Contact" or "Contributors" section unless there's a better way to find people with knowledge/interest in the language. Visible or invisible comments would help wherever it is not obvious what content goes where. I am wondering whether there's a better way to present queries, something like the current lexeme lists. General language-independent rules like the current notability guidelines need improvement, so that language pages can just list exceptions. — Robert Važan (talk) 20:49, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

@Robert Važan: good points. As I said, it's just a very stubby draft, feel free to do all the changes you want and implment your ideas . I see that @Jsamwrites: don't hesitate to tell us what you thought about it. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 15:35, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON @Robert Važan I would add some information by default in the Resources section. For example, links to the official page, notability guidelines, Tools and the template of Lexicographical properties. I would also add one sample query that returns all the lexemes from the language under the section Queries. For example, something like this. John Samuel (talk) 16:30, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON, Jsamwrites: Do you know of a way to provide language QID to the template? That would make it possible to create functional info box, sample queries, and maybe other basic content. Maybe even language code of the page could be derived from it? — Robert Važan (talk) 00:56, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Robert Važan: I know there is parameter (see mw:Manual:Creating_pages_with_preloaded_text#Using_parameters) but not sure how to provide them. @Lucas Werkmeister: would you know? It reminds me Luas remarks that we should also add an editintro= for instruction on how to use this preloading (this is maybe where we can explain the Qid). Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 09:51, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: Hm, tricky. It looks like preloadparams[]= can be used to hard-code certain parameters of the preload template in the inputbox (so you can reuse the same preload= for multiple inputboxes, I guess?), but what you want here would be more like a second input field.

Maybe you could change the inputbox to only take the item ID of the language, and then put some subst magic in the preload template which gets the language code (the current input value) from the relevant item at the time the page is first saved? --Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 11:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: I have made some changes. I am still not sure what to do with queries. The way queries are currently done on Slovak page is really just a temporary hack. — Robert Važan (talk) 02:53, 11 April 2021 (UTC)