Wikidata:Property proposal/Infobox based on

Commons infobox based on

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects

Not done

Description	ID of an object, which was depicted or digitized to create this file and which will be used to create infobox (like Book or Artwork template) describing it
Data type	Item
Template parameter	wikidata parameter in c:template:Artwork, c:template:Book, c:template:Photograph, c:template:Art photo,
Domain	object (Q488383): mostly object (Q488383), but also some abstract entity (Q7184903)
Allowed values	specific artworks, artifacts and other museum holdings, as well as movies, or music compositions
Example 1	Structured Data for → The Starry Night (Q45585) (for artworks opposite of image (P18))
Example 2	Structured Data for → Mona Lisa (Q12418) (opposite of image with frame (P7420))
Example 3	Structured Data for → David (Q179900)
Example 4	Structured Data for File:Julien Bryan - Siege.ogv → Siege (Q1351398) (opposite of video (P10))
Example 5	Structured Data for File:"The Star-Spangled Banner" performed at the White House in 1994.oga → The Star-Spangled Banner (Q44696) (opposite of audio (P51))
Example 6	Structured Data for → Mona Lisa (Q12418) (opposite of 3D model (P4896))
Example 7	Structured Data for File:EiffelTower fixed.stl → Eiffel Tower (Q243) (opposite of 3D model (P4896))
Example 8	Structured Data for → March Constitution of Poland (Q2535435) (opposite of document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996))
Example 9	Structured Data for → Nałęcz (Q1785126) (opposite of coat of arms image (P94))
Planned use	This SDC property will be used by file infoboxes on Commons to indicate which item should be used as basis for the infobox. It will have single-value constraint (Q19474404)
Robot and gadget jobs	User:JarektBot or others will populate this property based on current digital representation of (P6243): copying the values for 2D artworks and moving them for other objects.
See also	digital representation of (P6243), based on (P144), image (P18), main subject (P921)

Motivation

Property digital representation of (P6243) was originally proposed to be used with c:template:Artwork and be equivalent to {{Artwork|wikidata=...}}. It is being used that way right now by couple hundred thousand files and several templates. However other users had plans to use this property for 2D artworks only to indicate that the file is a faithful reproductions of two-dimensional works of art that meets requirements of c:template:PD-Art or to tag files where wikidata relative position within image (P2677) properties are valid. As a result Wikidata:Property proposal/Digital representation of proposal when finally approved was ambiguous about its purpose. Ever since, most of the discussions at Property_talk:P6243 revolve around multiple visions different users have for this property. Based on Property_talk:P6243#2D_vs._3D discussion it seems like the best solution is to split digital representation of (P6243) into at least 2 properties: one to be used by Commons infobox templates and one for digitizations of 2D artworks. --Jarekt (talk) 04:36, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How is it different from other properties:

digital representation of (P6243) - P6243 will be redefined to apply to only 2D artworks while infobox based on will apply to any 2D or 3D artwork, audio or video
based on (P144) - P144 is used on Wikidata for derivative works etc. and assigning a different role to it on Commons could cause confusion.
image (P18) - P18 does not have single-value constraint (Q19474404) and does not apply to audio. Only one infobox based on will be allowed per file
main subject (P921) - P921 does not have single-value constraint (Q19474404) and it is used on Wikidata in a different way and assigning new role to it on Commons could cause confusion. Only one infobox based on will be allowed per file.

In general, getting a new single-purpose property with name linking it to its purpose is important, since adding this property would affect the displayed metadata, and should be independent of any other task.--Jarekt (talk) 12:53, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Oppose Use depicts (P180). Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 20:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mike, Can you provide details on your proposal? How would it work? Depict statements seem particularly badly suited for this task:

depicts (P180) are not really related to setting which items should be used by infobox templates.
An item can have dozens of depicts and an infobox template need a property with single-value constraint (Q19474404).
depicts (P180) make no sense in case of audio files, books, movies, etc.
Each time we give a property multiple tasks we end up with a mess. In the past it was decided that we do not need a property for nationality and that we should try to cram that information into country of citizenship (P27) and ethnic group (P172), resulting in those properties often storing conflicting information. Same happened with digital representation of (P6243) which is trying to serve too many roles for too many neds. That is why we are trying to split it. --Jarekt (talk) 02:20, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If depicts (P180) is used correctly (i.e., for the specific things depicted, not random things), then it works well. E.g., see commons:File:Jodrell Bank Mark II 5.jpg, which uses commons:Template:Structured Data to pull out information about multiple telescopes in the image. The same should work fine in the cases here. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:28, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

However depicts (P180) is usually not used correctly and yes you can handcraft an image where it works but for great many images it does not. c:template:Artwork uses depicts (P180) to find and list depicted people. That code was crashing on some pages due too many depict statements and taking too long. I had to limit it to only first 50 depicts for which I was looking up instance of (P31). That is why "Infobox based on" only allows a single value. The purpose of depict is to list depicted people, places, objects, etc. and purpose of "Infobox based on" is to choose a single item to base the infobox on. Those 2 purposes are very different. We already tried to use a single property for 3 different tasks: digital representation of (P6243) and as a result it does not work well for any of them. --Jarekt (talk) 00:56, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment unless we have samples of uses elsewhere, could you add "Commons" to the property label? --- Jura 07:12, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure --Jarekt (talk) 02:09, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Christian Ferrer (talk) 22:18, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'm not fully convinced about not using main subject (P921), but right now we're in a deadlock and I want to get digital representation of (P6243) cleaned up so we can go to the next step with that property. Let's create this new property. Clean up digital representation of (P6243) and maybe later decide to merge the new property into main subject (P921) (or not). That way we can do incremental improvements. Multichill (talk) 12:18, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support. I'm not a big fan of creating and using properties that are solely designed for the purpose of displaying (or not displaying) certain data on our wikis. (Said differently: I think our properties should be Wikimedia-independent and purely semantic, and the way we display content on our wikis should smartly work with those semantics.) I also think it would be most future-proof if we would rethink the way we do infoboxes for files on Commons, not try to stuff structured data in the old flawed ways we used to do things with the limits of Wikitext. That said, the way we've ended up misusing digital representation of (P6243) for photos of three-dimensional works is also not great at all. So I'm with Multichill on being pragmatic and using this property temporarily as hopefully a step forward towards hopefully a more and more correct and clear way of displaying semantically correct data about creative works, files showing these creative works, and the creators of the works and the files. Spinster 💬 12:37, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Question At Property talk:P6243, User:Jarekt has floated the idea of using depicts (P180) or main subject (P921) with a qualifier object of statement has role (P3831) = "appropriate subject for infobox" (or similar), that the template could pick up. Is that a model that could work? Would it cover all the use-cases? Jheald (talk) 10:47, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It would not work well with depicts (P180) as you might have large number of those and it might be a mess to find the depict with the qualifier. main subject (P921) might work because there should be only one of those. Tools like c:User:Magnus Manske/sdc tool.js which I currently use to add digital representation of (P6243) to files, do not support qualifiers. Is main subject (P921) appropriate for files which show image details or for PDF files which we would link to items? --Jarekt (talk) 01:28, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Switched to using main subject (P921) on Commons so I think we can close this one. Multichill (talk) 21:07, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In that case I'm closing this discussion. If I made a mistake please feel free to revert my closing. Thanks. RPI2026F1 (talk) 16:30, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]