Wikidata:Property proposal/Tribe

tribe

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Organization

Done: tribe (P12011) (Talk and documentation)

Description	recognised membership in a society, mainly denoted by shared cultural heritage
Represents	tribe (Q133311)
Data type	Item
Domain	human (Q5), legendary figure (Q13002315), human whose existence is disputed (Q21070568), mythical character (Q4271324), hypothetical person (Q75855169) and maybe fictional character (Q95074)
Allowed values	Items that are instances of tribe (Q133311): tribus (Q938560), Native American tribe (Q12885585), First Nation band (Q2882257), tribes of Israel (Q2605404), iwi (Q1676081), Seven Slavic tribes (Q221355), Polish tribes (Q3277231), Turkmen tribes (Q7855428), Kabylian tribes (Q3538942), Hazara tribes (Q6572970), Tribes of Montenegro (Q83793567), Pashtun tribe (Q3918404) and many others
Example 1	Julius Caesar (Q1048) → Fabia (Q3538791)
Example 2	Jalaluddin Haqqani (Q186013) → Zadran (Q8064185)
Example 3	Vercingetorix (Q178953) → Arverni (Q382553)
Example 4	Stand Watie (Q288408) → Cherokee Nation (Q14708404)
Example 5	Tarzan (Q170241) → Waziri (Q56917)
Example 6	Tatanka (Q951430) → Lumbee (Q1886046)
Example 7	David (Q41370) → Tribe of Judah (Q913564)
Example 8	Muhammad (Q9458) → Quraysh (Q485732)
Source	Social Anthropology of North American Tribes (Q60263529), Detribalizing the later prehistoric past: Concepts of tribes in Iron Age and Roman studies (Q56476488), State‐tribe relations: Kurdish tribalism in the 16th‐ and 17th‐century Ottoman empire (Q56094933), Lotte Hedeager. Iron Age societies: from tribe to state in northern Europe, 500 BC to AD 700. (Social Archaeology). Translated by John Hines. ix + 274 pages, 95 figures. 1992. Oxford: Basil Blackwell: ISBN 0-631-17106-1 hardback £30 (Q58890026), Indianlaw.org, Alaskan villages
See also	ethnic group (Q41710), clan (Q211503), national citizenship (Q42138), country of citizenship (P27), ethnic group (P172), member of Roman tribe (P11491), Wikidata:Property proposal/Nationality, Wikidata:Property proposal/nationality (cultural identity), Wikidata:Property proposal/Cultural identity, Wikidata:Property proposal/clan

Motivation

Tribes are the social system which most human beings in history have lived under before the birth of nation states, and they continue to exist de facto or legaly recognized in many places today on all six populated continents. A tribe is not necessarily an ethnic group, many tribes have allowed or continue to allow people to become parts of them trought marriage, adoption, or other means, people can also be members of tribes because they have been raised within their culture even if lacking much or any blood relation to the overall tribe. On the reverse many individual tribes can also belong to the exact same ethnic group as each other, with any outsider not being able to tell them apart physically or culturally, but the people themselves knowing very well where their indentity is. As of now many items on Wikidata for American indigenous leaders lack links to the very tribes they were the chiefs of, only including a broader ethnic category and or citizenship to the countries they happen to live in. Same can be said for ancient Roman people whose very voting rights were tied to their tribal belonging. The topic has come up on the project chat several times 1, 2, and I believe it is time to finally propose this.

I would also be open to there being individual properties for some countries' legaly recognized tribes, for example a property named "First Nation band" for Canada, "Federally recognized tribe" as well as "State recognized tribe" for the US, and "Roman tribe" for ancient Rome. Worth noting that in the US and Canada many tribes have reservations of land belonging to them and they have a certain amount of sovergeinity, if items for them are created it would be good to allow for a "belongs to" or similar on those items.StarTrekker (talk) 15:36, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

@StarTrekker: I'm not convinced this is different from ethnic group (P172) - I don't think blood descent is required for ethnicity. Can you provide a reference to an authoritative source on this distinction? Also your "see also" values should be properties, not Q items. ArthurPSmith (talk) 16:03, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Its blatantly obviously not the same thing as ethnicity, does being an ethnicity generally entail being a registered member or under certain jurisdiction in most of the world?StarTrekker (talk) 19:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  @StarTrekker If this property is about requiring registration, it should say so in the description of the property. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 12:58, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Seems reasonable. I see this being applied fairly loosely, and anticipate that a tribal membership may be an instance of another. For example, in Canada a single band or First Nations government has members that belong to one, or possibly more, First Nations. The latter is more akin to an ethnic group, although it may in turn be part of a larger group. For example, the w:Onion Lake Cree Nation is one First Nation of Plains Cree people, who belong to the progressively larger groupings of w:Cree peoples, Cree-Montagnais speakers, speakers of w:Central Algonquian languages, and w:Algonquian peoples (which belongs to the w:First Nations in Canada, one of the three recognized Indigenous groups along with w:Inuit and w:Métis). In different contexts, any of these might be called a “tribe,” and the larger groupings “ethnic groups,” (and I’ll leave it to someone else to figure out which we should classify with this properties). Incidentally, a First Nation typically has one or more designated tracts of land called reserves, and a broader traditional treaty land claim, any of which may be shared with other First Nations governments or other First Nations peoples. —Michael Z. 18:18, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Question request: Please explain the differences with country of citizenship (P27) and ethnic group (P172). 2A01:CB14:D52:1200:B01F:8072:1B2A:2EAB 02:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Question request: Please explain why Vercingetorix (Q178953)ethnic group (P172)Arverni (Q382553) and Stand Watie (Q288408)ethnic group (P172)Cherokee Nation (Q14708404) are wrong. 2A01:CB14:D52:1200:B01F:8072:1B2A:2EAB 02:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
suggestion: Maybe you should ping Wikidata:WikiProject Ethnicity, Wikidata:WikiProject Ethnicities in Indonesia, Wikidata:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, Wikidata:WikiProject Sociology. 2A01:CB14:D52:1200:B01F:8072:1B2A:2EAB 02:58, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
«I would also be open to there being individual properties for some countries' legaly recognized tribes, for example a property named "First Nation band" for Canada, "Federally recognized tribe" as well as "State recognized tribe" for the US, and "Roman tribe" for ancient Rome.» => What is the issue/problem with Cherokee Nation (Q14708404)instance of (P31)federally recognized Native American tribe in the United States (Q7840353)? 2A01:CB14:D52:1200:B01F:8072:1B2A:2EAB 03:06, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since the creation of member of Roman tribe (P11491): Roman tribe in which one was inscribed, the current first example is covered by Julius Caesar (Q1048)member of Roman tribe (P11491)Fabia (Q3538791). 2A01:CB14:D52:1200:141:C262:8BA7:4741 08:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Depending on the requirements for official recognition or documentation this is redundant with either ethnic group (P172), member of (P463), or country of citizenship (P27). Karl Oblique (talk) 17:33, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'm noting the basis here of North American native tribes which consider themselves different ethnic groups. This is not the case for tribes everywhere. A prime example of this is New Zealand Māori. Our tribes are not ethnic groups. My Aunt's country of citizenship is New Zealand (Q664), her ethnic group is Māori (Q6122670), her Tribe (Or Iwi in the local language), is Ngāti Kahungunu (Q1138165). All different things. Māori are split into many different Iwi, different Iwi are not different ethnic groups, they are all part of the Māori ethnic group. Māori do not have to be New Zealand citizens. Māori born in Australia are still part of the Māori ethnic group, and part of one of the many tribes of New Zealand. It would not be accurate to list different Tribes of New Zealand as different ethnic groups. Absolutely nowhere are they considered as such. ElDubs (talk) 07:14, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- iwi (Q1676081) is currently a subclass of ethnic group so the tribes of New Zealand are considered ethnic groups in Wikidata. 2A01:CB14:D52:1200:D05B:B6A:4683:15DF 07:23, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  This is precisely the point of contention. Iwi are an example of why tribes should not be a subclass of ethnic groups. Because tribes are not necessarily so. You will find no serious sources showing that Iwi are ethnic groups. ElDubs (talk) 23:28, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

iwi
- polity ^(@)→
- nation
  - group of humans ^(#)→
- tribe
  - ^→(@) polity
    - political organization
      - organization
        person or organization
        agent
        independent continuant ^…
        corporate body
        object ^…
        group of humans ^(#)→
        social system ^(%)→
        complex system
        ^→(+) system
        collective entity ^…
  - ethnic group
    - population group
      - human social group ^(●)→
    - identity
      - quality
        property
        abstract entity ^…
      - self-concept
        concept
        abstract entity ^…
        semantic unit ^…
  - ^→(●) human social group
    - ^→(#) group of humans
      - group of living things
        group of physical objects ^…
    - ^→(%) social system
      - system ^(+)→

- FYI Special:permalink/1850864960#P172. 2A01:CB14:D52:1200:D05B:B6A:4683:15DF 08:41, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support--القلموني (talk) 22:03, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support this property is used alot in Arabic biography. And still to present the tribe is is an important element in introducing people and understanding conflicts.--حبيشان (talk) 07:12, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support a very used properties in Arabic figures, modern & historical.--Michel Bakni (talk) 09:14, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support أبو هشام (talk) 10:47, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support This property is still used in Arab countries أحمد الغرباوي (talk) 23:49, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support--Ahmed Naji ^Talk 19:41, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done tribe (P12011). Please keep in mind that this property should be used with discretion. Jonathan Groß (talk) 07:29, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also Comment For Roman tribus which are different from other tribes in many ways, we already have member of Roman tribe (P11491) and should continue using it. I cannot with certainty say anything about the other examples given above, but to me as a layman they seem okay. Jonathan Groß (talk) 07:39, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]