Property talk:P5800
Documentation
narrative role of this character (should be used as a qualifier with P674 or restricted to a certain work using P10663)
Represents | narrative role (Q109682310) | ||||||||||||
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Data type | Item | ||||||||||||
Domain | fictional entity (Q14897293) or mythical entity (Q24334685)work (Q386724) | ||||||||||||
Allowed values | |||||||||||||
Example | A Study in Scarlet (Q223131) → unreliable narrator (Q650118) A Study in Scarlet (Q223131) → protagonist (Q215972) Narrator (Q3336121) → narrator (Q58363586) | ||||||||||||
Tracking: usage | Category:Pages using Wikidata property P5800 (Q126375275) | ||||||||||||
See also | subject has role (P2868), character type (P9071) | ||||||||||||
Lists | |||||||||||||
Proposal discussion | Proposal discussion | ||||||||||||
Current uses |
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Search for values |
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#Value type Q131714, Q58363586, Q6647660, Q1707847, Q10428845, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#Type Q14897293, Q24334685, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#Scope, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#Entity types
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#mandatory qualifier, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#allowed qualifiers, SPARQL
Replacement property: character type (P9071)
Replacement values: (Help)
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#none of, SPARQL
Replacement property: subject has role (P2868), object of statement has role (P3831)
Replacement values: (Help)
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#none of, SPARQL
Replacement property: has characteristic (P1552)
Replacement values: (Help)
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#none of, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#Conflicts with P31, search, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P5800#Type Q386724, SPARQL
Standardizing on statement or qualifier use
editThis property is used both as a main value property and as a qualifier, with the same meaning, which causes a great deal of inconsistency and duplication. When used as a main value property, the work is given using of (P642) as a (mandatory) qualifier, and when used as a qualifier, the work is given using characters (P674) as a main property. I think we should standardize on one of these, move all existing statements to a unified format, and deprecate the other format.
Of the two, I would recommend standardizing on using P5800 as a qualifier. The P674 statement already needs to be present, so we can avoid requiring extra duplicate content by placing P5800 data there. Thoughts on this? --Yair rand (talk) 03:08, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
- Can you give samples of the suggested changes? --- Jura 05:18, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Jura1: For example, the statement would be replaced by ⟨ 24 (Q56194) ⟩ characters (P674) ⟨ Jack Bauer (Q24) ⟩. --Yair rand (talk) 06:18, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
narrative role (P5800) ⟨ protagonist (Q215972) ⟩- These are actually items with different focus. How does the current approach affect you negatively in terms of editing? Are you unsure how you should contribute? --- Jura 06:23, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Jura1: For example, the statement would be replaced by
- Yair rand, for the reasons I gave in the proposal discussion I am against restricting the use of narrative role (P5800) to a qualifier (in short: those statements may be contested or there may be different opionions and some of them need to be qualified themselves (e.g. foil (Q5563727)). If there should be a preferred place, it should be at the character item, in my opinion. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 08:10, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Valentina.Anitnelav: Hm, I wasn't aware that there might need to be qualifiers for a narrative role. Would there be any problems with standardizing on the P5800-as-main-property system, and moving over the current statements that use it as a qualifier? --Yair rand (talk) 02:08, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- I see no problems with that. @Shisma: as the property proposer: what do you think? - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 08:44, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- It seems reasonable, but it feels wrong 😅 … Never mind, you have my support @Valentina.Anitnelav:@Jura1: --Shisma (talk) 08:46, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Yair rand, Shisma: I'm getting some doubt about using this property only as main value property as I'm now thinking about characters from television series: Here a character can have a certain narrative role relative to the whole series (or season), but relative to a certain episode a different one (an episode can focus on a supporting or minor character or even the antagonist). It would be nice to be able to give the narrative roles also for episodes, but it would be probably too much to indicate those roles at the character item and also a bit misleading in simple queries.
- @Valentina.Anitnelav: Hm, I wasn't aware that there might need to be qualifiers for a narrative role. Would there be any problems with standardizing on the P5800-as-main-property system, and moving over the current statements that use it as a qualifier? --Yair rand (talk) 02:08, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- I still agree that there should be some uniform way of stating those informations. I would propose to use narrative role (P5800) as a main value on the character item for complete works including seasons (books, plays, films, series, seasons) and as a qualifier for parts of works (episodes, for instance). - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 08:12, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- that is exactly my use case how I understood this proposal. I already implemented it and I think it is totally valid just to add the more general value as preferred --Shisma (talk) 19:32, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Using P642 to list episodes where a particular role is applicable seems to eliminate the need to separately have P5800 qualifiers on the episode items, I think? --Yair rand (talk) 23:38, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- Probably you are both right. I just thought about series with a lot of episodes (the series with the most episodes in Wikidata has 15.762 episodes currently) - I don't know if there are characters appearing in all episodes, but if this is the case one would need to list all 15.762 episodes on the character. Probably it is quite rare that a character appears in all episodes of those long-standing series. To use the preferred rank is a good idea, one just needs to keep this in mind in queries getting all characters and their narrative roles for an episode. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 07:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
- I still agree that there should be some uniform way of stating those informations. I would propose to use narrative role (P5800) as a main value on the character item for complete works including seasons (books, plays, films, series, seasons) and as a qualifier for parts of works (episodes, for instance). - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 08:12, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Notified participants of WikiProject Narration,
Notified participants of WikiProject Video_games (as they have this property listed in their property tables as a qualifier) @Yair rand: it seems to me that there is consensus to give this kind of information at the character. If nobody objects I would go ahead and move information given at characters (P674) to the character. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 11:05, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'd rather leave it as it was originally proposed. --- Jura 15:03, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Jura1: As a qualifier for characters (P674)? How would you suggest dealing with the situation mentioned above by Valentina.Anitnelav, where the narrative role itself needs qualifying? --Yair rand (talk) 07:59, 25 March 2019 (UTC)