Property talk:P9970

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predicate for
action that is described by this verb/predicate

Represents	predicate (Q179080)
Data type	Item
Example	no label (L579878-S1) → meeting (Q2761147) no label (L185-S1) → visual perception (Q162668) no label (L43036-S1) → swimming (Q6388) no label (L308430-S1) → walking (Q6537379)
See also	item for this sense (P5137), has thematic relation (P9971)
Lists	Items with the most statements of this property Count of items by number of statements (chart) Items with the most statements Items with the fewest statements Count of items by number of sitelinks (chart) Items with the most sitelinks Items with the most sitelinks, but no link to one Wikipedia (sample: Welsh Wikipedia, cywiki) Items with the fewest sitelinks Most linked wikis Items with the most identifier properties By value of property Most statements Fewest statements Most sitelinks Most linked wikis Total of sitelinks on items Most identifiers Fewest identifiers Items with no other statements Most recently created items Items with novalue claims Items with unknown value claims Usage history (total) Usage history (main statement) Chart by item creation date Database reports/Constraint violations/P9970 Map Random list
Proposal discussion	Proposal discussion
Current uses	Total 5,614 Main statement 5,609 >99.9% of uses Qualifier 5 <0.1% of uses
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[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]

Allowed entity types are Wikibase sense (Q54285715): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P9970#Entity types

Conflicts with “subclass of (P279)”: this property must not be used with the listed properties and values. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P9970#Conflicts with P279, search, SPARQL

Lexical category: verb (Q24905): this property should only be applied to lexemes with these lexical categories

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P9970#lexical category

Scope is as main value (Q54828448), as qualifier (Q54828449): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P9970#Scope, SPARQL

Useful link : Wikidata:Lexicographical data/Statistics/indirect translations (predicates)

Are qualifiers possible?

Hi,

@Mahir256, ArthurPSmith, So9q, Jsamwrites, 99of9: is it ok to use a qualifier to get a more precise value? kistina (L40606) is a Breton verb meaning "to collect, gather chestnut" so I used :

⟨ L40606-S ⟩ predicate for (P9970) ⟨ harvest (Q213753)    ⟩
of (P642) ⟨ chestnut (Q773987)    ⟩

I'm not entirely happy with of (P642) but what do you think of the general idea and would you have a better idea for the qualifier? or a better way to do it?

For the record, we have a lot of verbs like that in Breton (pesketa (L42122) being an other one where I didn't need a qualifier as we have fishing (Q14373) but I can't possibily create an item for every objects that can be collected).

Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 15:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: I also like the idea of using qualifiers here, but am also not confident that of (P642) is the right one (indeed, there should be a trend of discouraging extra uses of P642 in favor of more specific properties or formulations). For now I suppose it can be left, but once another use of "of" to indicate something other than "the patient of (or thing affected by) an action" appears, better qualifiers might need to be proposed. (I see that the -a suffix represents "collecting", but do not know how productive that suffix is in Breton.) Mahir256 (talk) 15:32, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON Interesting example. I would have also used of (P642), but there was a post by @Lucas Werkmeister some months ago, where it was suggested to rethink its use, with some interesting examples. We may need a new property qualifier for this, but until then of (P642) could be used. John Samuel (talk) 16:37, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mahir256, Jsamwrites: I think my broader question is also "what qualifiers should be allowed?", do you have any ideas of others cases where qualifiers could be useful? And like Lucas, I consider P642 to be harmful but here, I don't really see a better property (maybe applies to part (P518)? but it's also very general, maybe it could apply for other situation).

Mahir: good question, I looked and the productivity seems to be very low (much lower than I imagine) and can be "collecting" in a very broad sense: boueta is "to feed" (close but less general than "to collect food") and "merc'heta/paotreta" is "to flirt/seduce" (respectively with girls and boys, we maybe need a qualifier there too ; and a bit like the idiom "to pick up"), I'll try to find them all as an exercise :P (wikt:br:Rummad:-a has 58 pages but some are strange and some are missing).

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 18:22, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

(For completeness, I should note that I later suggested to mark this verb as a hyperonym of "dustum", a verb meaning "collect, gather" more generally, and to set has thematic relation (P9971) topic (Q22338337) with qualifier object sense (P5980) "kistin", the word for "chestnut". The shifting of the specifics of hyperonyms to thematic relations will likely be more flexible for many situations than the introduction of completely new qualifiers to this property.) Mahir256 (talk) 17:56, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Appropriate for Japanese counter word (Q2116774)?

@Mahir256, ArthurPSmith, So9q, Jsamwrites, 99of9:

歳/とし (L619048) is a suffix to be added to a number to indicate the number is the age of a person. Is predicate for (P9970) years old (Q24564698) appropriate here? New property? 🤷 --Shisma (talk) 17:26, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@Shisma: Can you give an example of how it is used? Does its presence in a sentence preclude the use of another verb or verb phrase in that sentence? Mahir256 (talk) 17:29, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

there is one example in the lexeme and The english wikipedia article has examples. I can't answer your question. Let's forward it to

Bravefoot
Okkn (talk)
Camillu87
User:Araisyohei
Tris T7 ^{TT me}
higa4
Mcampany
Mzaki
NMaia
Siramatu
Mochimap
Spinster
Haansn08
Shisma(UTC)
Syunsyunminmin
Yirba

Notified participants of WikiProject Japan – Shisma (talk) 18:00, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@Shisma: If this is like any other classifier, then my instinct is to say that this property does not belong on it. Mahir256 (talk) 18:59, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

but would you agree that invalid ID (L619048#S1) should be somehow connected to years old (Q24564698)? – Shisma (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@Shisma: Sure, I can see this being useful. Perhaps a new property should be created to establish such a link? (I'd support its proposal.) Mahir256 (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

well maybe item for this sense (P5137) would be appropriate? --Shisma (talk) 09:08, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

As you can see, "歳"or"才" is used as a unit of age, and 10 years old is read as "ju-sai". In kanji, it can also be read as "toshi", but with some exceptions, it is read as "sai" when expressing age.--Araisyohei (talk) 09:18, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

should those be separate lexemes connected with homograph lexeme (P5402)? 🤷 – Shisma (talk) 09:33, 14 November 2021 (UTC)