Wikidata:Property proposal/title number

title number

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Sports

Not done

Description	the number of the titles the winning team/person has after winning that title
Represents	sports competition (Q13406554)
Data type	Quantity
Template parameter	"winners" in en:Infobox football league season (We use to write the number of the title with this parameter, after the team) and other infoboxes
Allowed values	1-
Example	2016–17 Bundesliga (Q22970620) → winner (P1346) → FC Bayern Munich (Q15789) → title number → 26 → of (P642) → Bundesliga (Q82595)
Source	external reference URL, Wikipedia list article

Motivation

A property to use as a qualifier to show that a title was (for example) the 25th win of the league for a team. See Wikidata:Project chat#The number of the championships the winning team have after winning that trophy.. It can use for tournaments, leagues, cups etc. And it may use for other non-sport competitions also. Xaris333 (talk) 15:07, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Support David (talk) 15:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Mr. Fulano (talk) 23:51, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Not sure whether this works out, unfortunately. As already discussed in the Project chat topic, there is often a different count for league title and championship title. As this proposed property is supposed to be used as a qualifier to winner (P1346) claims, we cannot qualify the qualifier any further. We probably want to have a model where we can have statements for both, league and championship titles. Right now I have no idea how to do this… —MisterSynergy (talk) 18:26, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wait From the description it's not clear to me what the proposal is supposed to mean. Is it about the amount of titles the team has after winning a cup? I don't know and it's written nowhere in the description. The word "number" is frequently used on Wikidata in properties like "road number", "pennant number" or "Scottish Charity number" that are not about quantification but about mapping numbers to objects. I would like a name and description that's more clear or a better argument for why the current naming followes external conventions and should be used for that reason. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 20:02, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wait It seems your proposal cannot be used as illustrated in your example. What you are showing would require a qualifier to a qualifier, which isn't permitted. Could series ordinal (P1545) be used to better effect? Josh Baumgartner (talk) 18:20, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ChristianKl, Joshbaumgartner: Yes, the property is about the amount of titles the team has after winning a cup. FC Bayern Munich (Q15789) won 2016–17 Bundesliga (Q22970620). That cup was the 26th of the team that time. Bayer won their 26th Bundesliga title after wining 2016–17 Bundesliga (Q22970620). Bayer has now 27 Bundesliga title by winning 2017–18 Bundesliga (Q28937555) but this would not change the number 26 of my example. If you have another idea how to show that, I don't mind to withdrew the proposal. (Check the template at w:en:2016–17 Bundesliga, parameter "Champions") Xaris333 (talk) 20:41, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Xaris333: Understood. But my point is that in your example, the of (P642) qualifier doesn't work, so you would have:

⟨ 2016–17 Bundesliga (Q22970620)  

 ⟩ winner (P1346) ⟨ FC Bayern Munich (Q15789)  

 ⟩
title number Search ⟨ 26 ⟩
title number Search ⟨ 27 ⟩
of (P642) ⟨ Bundesliga (Q82595)  

 ⟩
of (P642) ⟨ German football championship ⟩

All of the qualifiers would be of the winner (P1346) claim, with no way to indicate that the '26' is of (P642) Bundesliga (Q82595) or '27' is of Germany.

In reality, what we are doing is saying that the event (BM winning the 2016-17 title) is the 26th item of a chronologically ordered set (Bundesliga championships won by Bayern Munchen) and the 27th item of another chronologically orderd set (German national championships won by Bayern Munchen). Thus we would need to have items created for these to properly model all of that. If we want to have this property to shortcut all of that, we need to define exactly what the inferred ordered set is. Thus we can use the parent item's sports season of league or competition (P3450) property to determine the set. In your example, this would mean applying the 'title number' qualifier would mean that Bayern-Munchen's title was their 26th of the Bundesliga (Q82595). However, it would preclude being able to use the property to say it was Bayern-Munchen's 27th German national championship. Josh Baumgartner (talk) 16:36, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshbaumgartner: Yes, I agree. Well, in other championships is easiest. For example

2017–18 Cypriot First Division (Q29937708) → winner (P1346) → APOEL F.C. (Q131378) → title number → 26 → of (P642) → Cypriot First Division (Q155965)

If you have another idea how to show that, I don't mind to withdrew the proposal. I am just trying to find a way to show the amount of titles the team has after winning a cup. Xaris333 (talk) 18:36, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Xaris333: I'm not saying it should be withdrawn because I don't necessarily have a better way about it. I do think we should have a way to do it for items where it doesn't make sense to make separate items for each championship. I would like to know if we have successfully done this for any other sequential items in WD to see how it might work. Josh Baumgartner (talk) 18:43, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshbaumgartner: I have already ask to Project Chat as you can read above... Don't know what else to do. Xaris333 (talk) 18:48, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

marking this as Not done given that the discussion has stalled with the remaining issues, feel free to reopen if a solution is found − Pintoch (talk) 20:38, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]