Wikidata:Property proposal/Container title

Title of broader work

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Creative work

   Done: title of broader work (P6333) (Talk and documentation)

Description	Title of website, journal, book or other work which a publication is published in. Use P1433 instead if possible.
Data type	Monolingual text
Domain	any item which contains referenced statements
Allowed values	any text
Example 1	Rick L. Riolo (Q56918163) → The references on these statements link to an obituary, the value might be "mLive Obituaries".
Example 2	Princess Marie Franziska von und zu Liechtenstein (Q43095438) → The references on these statements link to an angelfire website , the value might be "Paul Theroff’s Royal Genealogy Site".
Example 3	Agrinar (Q4694124) → The reference I've added from the Wikipedia links to a blogspot page - the value is "Pesados Argentinos"
Planned use	In the next month I plan to work on a gadget for adding references that will use this property.

Motivation

This is necessary for adding full references to any statement where it is difficult to automatically create or disambiguate a new item, particular for websites where there is currently no information on where to store the title of the website in Help:Sources. All standard citation styles require this field when citing websites. For example, the correct way to cite a website is in MLA style is:

“Title of Web Page.” Title of Website, Publisher, Date published in Day Month Year format, URL.

We need the ability to add the statement pointing to the value for "Title of Website." The only current alternatives to this is to use published in (P1433) and create a new item for the website itself. Some websites may be notable and this makes sense, others may not, such as a blogspot subdomain.

Help:Sources prohibits creating a new item for a webpage. How to add the website title to the reference is not covered. This would be useful as a general counterpart of published in (P1433) without the need to create an item in the same way like author name string (P2093) is a counterpart of author (P50). This would expedite the automatic creation of references using Citoid.

This is equivalent to the "website" parameter in the Template:Cite web template on en wiki:

{{cite web |url= |title= |last= |first= |date= |website= |publisher= |access-date= |quote=}}

Alternative names for this property include "Container title" and "Website title" and "Publication title." See more about MLA "Container titles.

Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 15:15, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

@Mvolz (WMF): Any opinions on using title (P1476) within the reference? Mahir256 (talk) 16:51, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@Mahir256: That is already occupied by the "Title of Web Page". This is would be for the title of the website. But you're correct that wasn't clear, I'll fill out the example a bit more. You could add title (P1476) twice but then it wouldn't be clear which was the title of the webpage and which was the title of the website. Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 16:56, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@Mahir256: whoops, I realise I made a typo which lead you to that conclusion. Fixing! Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 19:46, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

 Comment Do we really have cases where we wouldn't have or want an item for the website/"container" of a publication? ArthurPSmith ( :talk) 18:35, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@ArthurPSmith: I'm not sure, but Help:Sources seems to forbid this.

One thing is that we are adding this information automatically and it's not always possible to resolve that two containers are actually the same container because we may just have the string - even if the string matches it may not be the same container. In this sense it's a similar problem that resulted in the creation of author name string (P2093). This is further complicated by the fact that a single container entity might have multiple urls that point to it (i.e. google.co.uk and google.com).

In the second example I have added, the source is a personal angelfire page "Paul Theroff’s Royal Genealogy Site" so we would have to create an item for things like that. We would also have to create items for subdomains of blogspot, etc. as in the third example we'd create an item for Pesados Argentinos. Obviously I have picked worse case scenarios here but these are indeed the references used on the Wikipedia pages - so although these kinds of references are discouraged they do exist.

I'm not at all opposed to creating new items for these - but without consensus to proceed in this manner I worry that not having this property in place means it won't get added at all. I would rather wikidata users fix this as needed if they determine the container should indeed have its own item by removing the container title and replacing with stated in as needed, rather continue with only limited data. Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 16:04, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

•  Comment please provide examples Germartin1 (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@Germartin1: I have added two more - it's a little bit difficult because I can't link to references directly but hopefully it's clear. Please let me know if not. Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 16:04, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

 Comment Do I assume correctly that this property is equal to the “website” parameter in ENwiki's Template:Cite web? I certainly think that we should have some property that can be mapped to “website”. - PKM (talk) 19:09, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

@PKM: Yes, that is the corresponding field. Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 19:48, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

I am concerned that the label "container title" (although correct) would be meaningless for non-specialists searching for a way to add the property. I would prefer the label "website" or "website title" with "container title" as an alias. I also support adding websites as items if they are going to be used as references for more than 2 or 3 items, but of course, there will be one-offs that are used only on one item. - PKM (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks - I've changed to publication title for now. I guess the reason I prefer publication to website is in case the publication title isn't a website but we still don't want to create an item for it and that's more general, and hopefully have meaning for the website case as well? Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 10:10, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

•  Support per above, as needed to map the “website” parameter in Wikipedia citation templates. - PKM (talk) 05:40, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

 Comment I’m a bit confused by your mention of the only current alternative. So far, I’ve used published in (P1433) or publisher (P123) to link to the “container”, depending on whether the best available item looks more like a publication (e. g. TheGuardian.com (Q5614018) or, if a separate item for the online version doesn’t exist, The Guardian (Q11148)) or more like a publisher (e. g. Guardian Media Group (Q2665980)). If I saw a reference using stated in (P248), I would assume that the value is a dedicated item just for a single page, not for the container. --Galaktos (talk) 08:40, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

@Galaktos: Thanks for pointing out published in (P1433)! I'll update that- and good point about assuming the value is a dedicated item for the page, not the website. However it has the same issue of having to create an item for the container. (As for publisher, it is distinct from container title. If you look at the MLA citation field above, you'll see it has a publisher field in addition to the website title. Template:Cite web on en wiki also has "publisher" in a separate field. To full cite a website in any standard style, you need both the website title and the publisher.) Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 10:10, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

•  Support Ok, I think this makes sense. ArthurPSmith (talk) 20:32, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
•  Comment This should be a general counterpart of published in (P1433) without the need to create an item in the same way like author name string (P2093) is a counterpart of author (P50). if it is needed then please don't make it a property for references only. -- JakobVoss (talk) 21:20, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

@JakobVoss: Very good point, I have updated to reflect this using your suggestion below and also in the explanation text. I started with "references only" because I thought perhaps there'd be less object to using flat data (instead of linked data) in a reference as opposed to biographical data elsewhere, but you're correct that this could be used anywhere and that it's senseless to restrict to references only, as long as people understand published in is strongly preferred.Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 10:01, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

•  Oppose use published in (P1433), revise Help:Sources if needed (it's unclear where though).  Oppose label "publication title" for suggested use. This would need to be more specific. --- Jura 10:05, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

How about label "title of broader work" and description "title of journal, website, book or other work which a publication is published in. Use P1433 instead if possible." -- JakobVoss (talk) 13:16, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

@JakobVoss: Thank you, I've copied this above verbatim, this is great! Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 10:01, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

• From Help:Sources, I think there is no doubt that items for journals and books should be created. For websites, it's a bit confusing, but the guideline mainly wants to exclude items for pages of websites, not websites themselves.--- Jura 19:47, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

@Jura1: This is a very good point. On further reading it's only clear it specifically prohibits creating an item for a *page* but not necessarily the *site.* It is silent however on what do with this particular piece of metadata. I have updated this above, hopefully to more accurately reflect this. Let me know if you think the change doesn't accurately capture your comment. I think it's clear that whatever the outcome here Help:Sources needs to comment on how to add this. Mvolz (WMF) (talk) 10:16, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Looks better. As your focus seems to be to build a gadget for WP references, wouldn't it be easy to check/create items for websites? It might be more complicated for others. As it's done now for "author name string", people can then attempt to replace values of this property with P1433. --- Jura 08:29, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

 Support we can attempt to refine this periodically (similar to author name string). --- Jura 13:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't want an item for every Website only because it is part of a reference. Sure we can detect frequently used websites and create items for them in a second step. -- JakobVoss (talk) 19:40, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

• Would narrowing the scope just to websites, and labeling this property "website name" adequately address the concerns above? ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I prefer more general properties but nevermind. For normal (non-reference) statements an alternative is this: -- JakobVoss (talk) 19:40, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

⟨ subject ⟩ published in (P1433) ⟨ unknown value Help ⟩
object named as (P1932) ⟨ title ⟩

• Oppose. The tool should be able to correlate to known websites. --Izno (talk) 13:29, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

For the record, there is now an RfC about how to store the container or website title – see Wikidata:Requests for comment/Referencing websites: how do we store the website title?. @Mahir256, ArthurPSmith, Germartin1, PKM, Galaktos, JakobVoss: you might want to leave a comment there. --Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 14:48, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

 Done @Mvolz (WMF), ArthurPSmith, Germartin1, PKM, Galaktos:@JakobVoss, Jura1, Izno, Lucas Werkmeister: There is a clear need for this property, and while published in (P1433) should be used whenever possible, in some cases it is preferable to use this property instead.--Micru (talk) 12:51, 4 January 2019 (UTC)