Property talk:P1262

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RAÄ number
Identificator for an element in the Database of the cultural heritage in Sweden

Description	Fornminnesregistret (Q10498015) is a database of the cultural heritage in Sweden. The links in that database can be provided by the proposed kulturarvsdata-property above, but the name of each item in this database is a code based on the name of the civil parish or city followed by a serial number.
Associated item	National Archives of Sweden (Q1724971)
Applicable "stated in" value	Fornminnesregistret (Q10498015)
Data type	External identifier
Template parameter	sv:Mall:RAÄ-nummer and commons:Template:Fornminne
Domain	cultural heritage in Sweden (note: this should be moved to the property statements)
Allowed values	the name of a civil parish together with a number (note: this information should be moved to a property statement; use property format as a regular expression (P1793))
Example	Rök Runestone (Q472975) → Rök 1:1 Uppland Runic Inscription 932 (Q7899135) → Uppsala 1:1
Related to country	Sweden (Q34) (See 117 others)
Lists	Most recently created items Items with novalue claims Items with unknown value claims Usage history (total) Usage history (main statement) Chart by item creation date Database reports/Constraint violations/P1262
Proposal discussion	Proposal discussion
Current uses	Total 145,810 Main statement 390 0.3% of uses Qualifier 145,417 99.7% of uses Reference 3 <0.1% of uses
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[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]

Distinct values: this property likely contains a value that is different from all other items. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1262#Unique value, SPARQL (every item), SPARQL (by value)

Single value: this property generally contains a single value. (Help)

List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1262#Single value, hourly updated report, SPARQL

Scope is as qualifier (Q54828449): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1262#Scope, SPARQL

Allowed entity types are Wikibase item (Q29934200): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1262#Entity types

Qualifier to Swedish Open Cultural Heritage URI (P1260)?

@André Costa (WMSE), Väsk: I've noticed that there is a large risk that we have several P1260's in one item. Even if we only count raa/fmis it is still high risk that there is more than one fmis-post per item. For example a grave field who consists of a dispersed set of graves, which fmis counts as several posts in their database. In those cases it would be difficult to connect correct RAÄ-nummer with correct Kulturarvsdata. And a RAÄ-nummer is always connected to a Kulturarvsdata, so I guess it makes sense. I have tested this now at Genesmon (Q1501467). Själevad 22:1 is about the excavation-site, and Själevad 151:1 is about the reconstruction-site. This example is not typical, but I guess it works. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 11:15, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

I like it. It makes the connection very clear and effectively uses RAÄ-nr as the human readable lable for the raa/fmis-id... which is what it is (today). /André Costa (WMSE) (talk) 14:15, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jura1: I see you modify the constraints a lot around here. Can you modify the constraints according to what we have agreed above? (i. e.: Only use as a qualifier to P1260) -- Innocent bystander (talk) 10:06, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Maybe {{Constraint:Qualifier}} will do some of it. Not sure if you can capture that it should only be a qualifier for P1260.

On Property talk:P1260, {{Constraint:Qualifiers|list={{P|1262}} }} could fit, but might need addition of others.

BTW, please update the property documentation (especially the sample) and bear in mind that properties only used as qualifiers are much harder to make use of. --- Jura 06:42, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

We are still discussing exactly how P1260 should be used. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have only one identifier for all Swedish databases who uses kulturarvsdata. The problem is that the identifiers are not easily constructed for example protected buildings. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 11:27, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

@Alicia Fagerving (WMSE), Innocent bystander, Abbe98:Restarting this discussion based on the discussion on User talk:Alicia Fagerving (WMSE). (Pinging in Abbe98 as someone who might have imported/looked at importing some of these as part of ChurchSearch?

I would agree that using it as a qualifer would make a lot of sense. Sadly out of the ~1000 uses most don't have a Swedish Open Cultural Heritage URI (P1260) at all, we would probably want to fix those manually. Would there be a way of limiting it so that it so that we get reports if it is used as a qualifier on a Swedish Open Cultural Heritage URI (P1260) where the value doesn't start with "raa/fmi/"?

The separate issue is that of splitting Swedish Open Cultural Heritage URI (P1260). While I think that would be useful for bbr and fmis I'm not sure we could get properties created for all of the smaller datasets. It might be better to identify the main pain points (such as duplicate urls, different qualifier constraints on different datasets) to see if we can address those. /André Costa (WMSE) (talk) 10:07, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

@André Costa (WMSE): Re: fixing it manually... There's two steps involved, first removing the RAÄ claim where there's no accompanying P1260, then adding the right P1260 with the RAÄ number as a qualifier. Based on a quick look through the results of your query, there's a couple of items that have both a RAÄ number and a P1260, but standalone, not as a qualifier. The question is whether it makes sense to just remove the RAÄ number from these 1000 of items, right now, so that the WLM import will have a "blank slate" to work on (and so as to not encourage adding it as a standalone claim anymore). --Alicia Fagerving (WMSE) (talk) 10:29, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

@André Costa (WMSE), Alicia Fagerving (WMSE): I'm not sure I actually support the existence of this property. Swedish Open Cultural Heritage URI (P1260) works fine and you can use regex in you SparQL to limit your results to "raa/fmi" etc. I got a RDF dump of Kulturarvsdata so it would just be to look up the RAÄ number there and get the actual URI.

I got quite a lot of work done when it comes to mapping the RAÄ items to WLM but I spent most of my holiday sick so I newer finished it. Please let me know what you are up to. PS see my comment over at Swedish Open Cultural Heritage URI (P1260) too. DS --Abbe98 (talk) 16:17, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

As you can modify the regex in SparQL, you can also create "complex constraints" based on that. I did that to P:P776, since the last småort-report from SCB did not have any "official names" for the new småorts, only a code and a coordinate. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 17:43, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

@Abbe98: Not sure I understand. This is the property for the "Old style" labels such as "RÖK 1:1". Since these are still the label most often used in literature we would like to include them on Wikipedia. Not sure we could do that via Swedish Open Cultural Heritage URI (P1260). On the other hand Swedish Open Cultural Heritage URI (P1260) uniquely identifies an object whereas RAÄ number (P1262) is (IIRC) only guaranteed to be unique per province.

@Alicia Fagerving (WMSE): As for fixing it manually. If we decide to use this as a qualifier I would suggest adding the qualifier (or 1260+qualifier) first then afterwards (or in the same edit) removing the stand-alone property. Blanket removing correct info is generally not appreciated. /André Costa (WMSE) (talk) 09:02, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

@André Costa (WMSE): When you say you would like to include them on Wikipedia what do you mean? Is it necessary to include them on Wikidata? I see very few use cases in a Wikidata/technical context. --Abbe98 (talk) 10:14, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

@Abbe98:. it is something which you want to display in both infoboxes and WLM lists (once they are Wikidata powered). I would also argue that it is something you would want to search for on Wikidata. You could possibly argue that it is an alias, but you could hava a similar argument about any id incl. Swedish Open Cultural Heritage URI (P1260). /André Costa (WMSE) (talk) 10:32, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

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With respect to only using this Property as a qualifier on Swedish Open Cultural Heritage URI (P1260) I would read the above as being a general consensus that it is the way we want it. I'll modify the example above to reflect this.

There is an open question on how we should go around making the change (remove first then overwrite or add as qualifier then remove stand-alone) but I don't see that as a blocker of the above conclusion. /André Costa (WMSE) (talk) 14:27, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Useful: here's a query for all the items that use P1262 twice, both standalone and as a qualifier, with identical values. I'm thinking in this batch, the standalone use can be removed. There's also a couple with two uses with different values. --Alicia Fagerving (WMSE) (talk) 13:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I've had a quick petscan run on the identical-values batch since these are the easiest ones, but of course there's going to be more as the upload is still ongoing. As for the ones with value discrepancies, looks like the reason is articles like sv:Hundhamra that contain information about multiple monuments. --Alicia Fagerving (WMSE) (talk) 13:50, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Not a unique identifier

copied from Wikidata:Project chat:
Neither RAÄ number (P1262) is fully unique. Not a big deal, since only small parts of the database can be found here. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 08:45, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

How is that no unique? FreightXPress (talk) 16:11, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

@FreightXPress: It's based on a civil parish-name and one, two or three numbers. Gudmundrå 1:1 is a typical RAÄ-nummer. When two or more parishes have the same name, two (or more) RAÄ-numbers can be identical. Torsåker 1:1 can for example be found in three places, one in Ångermanland province (an iron or bronze age grave), one in Gävleborg (an iron age grave) and one in Södermanland (an undated hunting pit). Since Wikipedia have very few articles about these places, it's not a big deal. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 13:45, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

@Innocent bystander: So, it is unique per province? When have they been invented? If it is called "RAÄ-nummer" - then maybe the parish name is not part of it, since it is not a number? So, it maybe simply is unique per parish? FreightXPress (talk) 23:25, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, I see the name is given on the site, http://www.fmis.raa.se/cocoon/fornsok/search.html?raa_number=Tors%C3%A5ker+1%3A1&tab=2 FreightXPress (talk) 23:29, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

And the unique id is Objektidentitet http://www.fmis.raa.se/cocoon/fornsok/search.html?tab=3&page=1&objektid=10037600010001, where 00010001 represents the 1:1 FreightXPress (talk) 23:32, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

I do not know if it is unique per province. I think there is two parishes in Småland with the same name, but I do not remember which now. But it's absolutly unique per parish. 10037600010001 can be read Parish:0376 1:1. 0376 is the ATA-code of Torsåker, Södermanland. There is an old form of number that isn't used very much anymore. It's in the form "Torsåker 1:1(1)" then it isn't very easy to see the connection with the identifier. One example is Nätra 307:1(1)=12000000084080. It is often used to separate a specific grave in a field of graves. In this specific example it is a group of houses in an excavations site from the stone age.

A more persistent link to the database-item of Torsåker 1:1 is: http://kulturarvsdata.se/raa/fmi/html/10037600010001

In Property:P1260 we have choosen to have raa/fmi/10037600010001 as an identifier. That identifier then also includes a large group of databases. Most of them are from Swedish museums. The alternative would have been to have a very large group of properties only for Sweden.

I do not know if the parish-name originally was a part of the "number", but as far as I know, it's regarded as that today. In older archeology articles, often write only RAÄ 29, and then omits the parish name. But more modern articles often also includes the parish-name. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 06:34, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

RAÄ-nummer ?? Obsolete?

see helpdesk question I-2206-0290 link - Salgo60 (talk) 06:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)