Property talk:P761
Latest comment: 4 years ago by Nasko in topic Property being discussed
Documentation
Lake ID (Sweden)
Identification code for lakes in Sweden, for lakes important enough also used, with SE- prefix, as EU_CD
Identification code for lakes in Sweden, for lakes important enough also used, with SE- prefix, as EU_CD
[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]
Type “body of water (Q15324), waterbody (Q1389310)”: item must contain property “instance of (P31)” with classes “body of water (Q15324), waterbody (Q1389310)” or their subclasses (defined using subclass of (P279)). (Help)
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P761#Type Q15324, Q1389310, hourly updated report, SPARQL
Distinct values: this property likely contains a value that is different from all other items. (Help)
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P761#Unique value, hourly updated report, SPARQL (every item), SPARQL (by value)
Single value: this property generally contains a single value. (Help)
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P761#Single value, hourly updated report, SPARQL
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). Known exceptions: Inner Idefjorden coastal water body (Q62572254)
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P761#Format, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P761#Format, SPARQL
Item “country (P17): Sweden (Q34)”: Items with this property should also have “country (P17): Sweden (Q34)”. (Help)
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P761#Item P17, hourly updated report, search, SPARQL Item “coordinate location (P625)”: Items with this property should also have “coordinate location (P625)”. (Help)
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P761#Item P625, hourly updated report, SPARQL
Allowed entity types are Wikibase item (Q29934200): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P761#Entity types
Scope is as main value (Q54828448), as reference (Q54828450): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P761#Scope, SPARQL
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Property being discussed edit
This property is being discussed at Wikidata:Property_proposal/Authority_control#EU_Surface_Water_Body_Code. /André Costa (WMSE) (talk) 11:30, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
- Additionally at User talk:André Costa (WMSE)#EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856). My conclusion: it should be renamed "lake ID (Sweden)" (and "sjöid" in Swedish), and the formatter URL should be removed (and should stay at EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856) as second URL). If noone opposes I will perform these changes in a couple of days. Lymantria (talk) 05:51, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
Done A lot of languages need new labels. Lymantria (talk) 08:54, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
- The label should be "VISS ID". The VISS database contain more bodies of water than just lakes. /ℇsquilo 17:39, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
The Swedish label of this property has been changed to "VISS ID". It should be "sjöid" as it (of what I can tell) does not have the scope of surface water bodies, but the scope of lake water bodies. A sjöid is set for lake water bodies in Sweden, and not set for other types of water bodies such as for example coastal water bodies. In the case of "VISS ID" the term should actually be "VISS EU_CD" which to the best of my knowledge is identical to a EU_CD number which should contain the country prefix (such as "SE" for Sweden). If no one opposes I will change the Swedish label back to "sjöid" and the Swedish description to describe lakes instead of water bodies in a couple of days. Of what I can tell from User talk:André Costa (WMSE)#EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856) the facts provided by @Nasko: are correct and also lead to the conclusion that the Swedish label is "sjöid". Josefina Algotsson (talk) 13:14, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Josefina Algotsson. Esquilo made the change from Lake ID to VISS ID some 6 weeks ago. The link to VISS only works for lakes larger than 1 km² and is rather pointless.
- EU CD for Swedish lakes larger than 1 km² is the same as Sjöid (Lake Id) with the prefix SE (SE=Sweden), but for lakes smaller than 1 km² EU CD is the center coordinate for the lake i the reference system RT90 with the prefix NW. This is in consequent, but that is how the Swedish authorities did it back in the day some 20 years ago. Sjöid (Lake id) is the only stable identification code for lakes in Sweden. The identifier dates back over 80 years when RT 38 was in use and had a major overhaul in the early 1980s. Sjöregistret (the lake database in Sweden) is managed by SMHI but all environmental data (in lakes, waterways, groundwater and the sea) is managed by VISS (Water Information System Sweden). It's a bit confusing, but Sweden is highly decentralized and very few things are managed directly by the state. VISS is only a data central that collects and presents data that has been created by others (SMHI, lantmäteriet, counties, municipalities, etc). The data in VISS is reported to the European Union. Lakes > 1 km² (8,000 or so) have their own environmental data, but smaller lakes are too influenced by their surroundings so they are bundled in to sub drainage basins (delavrinningsområden) with an area of ca 20 km² with their own environmental data. I hope I made the murky waters of Sweden a little clearer. Nasko (✉) 19:13, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- I changed the name because the scope is wider than just lakes. VISS contains all surface water bodies in Sweden including lakes, watercourses and costal water bodies. Actually it is not limited to surface water bodies as it also contains groundwater body (Q30092720). All coastal water body (Q16615865) in Sweden now has this property and it has proven to be extremely useful for verifying other claims for those items. Lake ID (Sweden) (P761) is a subscope of EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856). P761 is a external database key to VISS while P2856 is a external database key to Eionet. VISS contain fewer bodies of water (only Sweden, not whole EU) but contain much more information about them. As VISS is a subset of EU_CD and not a separate set, the keys are the same. (If VISS contain bodies of water that does not exist in EU_CD, like < 1 km², then VISS is a separate set, but with same key for the union of the sets). /ℇsquilo 06:25, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- If the scope is wider than lakes, we shouldn't talk so much about lakes in the descriptions in different languages and in the source material. There seems to be some disparity in the description of the property ("Index in Swedish National Water Information Database Q20819864" which would refer to all water bodies described on the database, not just lakes) and descriptions in all languages except Swedish (Eng: "Identification code for lakes in Sweden"). So the descriptions in different languages don't translate to the same meaning. Which one is correct? My understanding is that the focus of this property is lakes (since the format is the same format as a sjöid, all descriptions talk about lakes, and the source material is about lakes. However the original property description seems to talk about Swedish National Water Information Database Q20819864 so it is confusing. If this property is described as both a VISS ID and sjöid and called Lake ID without having a SE prefix to make it equal to EU_CD it's not mapping well to all other types of water bodies that are not lakes but present on VISS. The fact that all coastal water bodies now have a Lake ID in their items is confusing, because they are not lakes and they don't have a sjöid in the sense that this property seems to describe. Perhaps these statements have been useful for quality checks, but can't that be fulfilled by using the EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856)? Josefina Algotsson (talk) 11:10, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- The Property Lake ID (Sweden) (P761) should be called sjöid and the property EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856) should be called EU_CD. I believe there has been a mix up between the two somehow. formatter URL (P1630) in Lake ID (Sweden) (P761) should be moved to EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856) and Lake ID (Sweden) (P761) should be renamed back to sjöid. The URL pointer to VISS doesn't work form sjöid (P761) but - not surprising - it works like a charm from EU_CD (P1630) Nasko (✉) 21:05, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- I changed back P761 to Sjöid and removed the sketchy URL to VISS. Anyone who wants a property for VISS-id should create a new property and import all identifiers from VISS (+100k or so) and work from there. Nasko (✉) 21:19, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Nasko: I reverted two of your changes. There is no need for a new property. There is also no need for any swedish lake or water identifier that does NOT link to either VISS or EU water database. /ℇsquilo 14:07, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- To avoid further confusion of the two, it could be an idea to put a bot to change all references to this property from EU_CD-keys to MS_CD-keys. That would also require change of format as a regular expression (P1793) and formatter URL (P1630) for this property. /ℇsquilo 14:24, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- 106,000 Swedish lakes uses sjöid (SMHI). Of those 8,800 uses EUCD and 22,000 uses MSCD (VISS). The rest, 70,000 lakes or so, don't exist in VISS' databases. If the changes you propose are realized, then 50 % of all Swedish lakes will have their identifier (and therefore their only reference to a credible database) erased. This goes against the fundamentals of Wikipedia/Wikimedia that all statements should have Reliable sources. I suggest that a new property is created to handle the VISS-id. It is the most sensible thing to do. Nasko (✉) 14:00, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- To avoid further confusion of the two, it could be an idea to put a bot to change all references to this property from EU_CD-keys to MS_CD-keys. That would also require change of format as a regular expression (P1793) and formatter URL (P1630) for this property. /ℇsquilo 14:24, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Nasko: I reverted two of your changes. There is no need for a new property. There is also no need for any swedish lake or water identifier that does NOT link to either VISS or EU water database. /ℇsquilo 14:07, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- I changed back P761 to Sjöid and removed the sketchy URL to VISS. Anyone who wants a property for VISS-id should create a new property and import all identifiers from VISS (+100k or so) and work from there. Nasko (✉) 21:19, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
- The Property Lake ID (Sweden) (P761) should be called sjöid and the property EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856) should be called EU_CD. I believe there has been a mix up between the two somehow. formatter URL (P1630) in Lake ID (Sweden) (P761) should be moved to EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856) and Lake ID (Sweden) (P761) should be renamed back to sjöid. The URL pointer to VISS doesn't work form sjöid (P761) but - not surprising - it works like a charm from EU_CD (P1630) Nasko (✉) 21:05, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- If the scope is wider than lakes, we shouldn't talk so much about lakes in the descriptions in different languages and in the source material. There seems to be some disparity in the description of the property ("Index in Swedish National Water Information Database Q20819864" which would refer to all water bodies described on the database, not just lakes) and descriptions in all languages except Swedish (Eng: "Identification code for lakes in Sweden"). So the descriptions in different languages don't translate to the same meaning. Which one is correct? My understanding is that the focus of this property is lakes (since the format is the same format as a sjöid, all descriptions talk about lakes, and the source material is about lakes. However the original property description seems to talk about Swedish National Water Information Database Q20819864 so it is confusing. If this property is described as both a VISS ID and sjöid and called Lake ID without having a SE prefix to make it equal to EU_CD it's not mapping well to all other types of water bodies that are not lakes but present on VISS. The fact that all coastal water bodies now have a Lake ID in their items is confusing, because they are not lakes and they don't have a sjöid in the sense that this property seems to describe. Perhaps these statements have been useful for quality checks, but can't that be fulfilled by using the EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856)? Josefina Algotsson (talk) 11:10, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- I changed the name because the scope is wider than just lakes. VISS contains all surface water bodies in Sweden including lakes, watercourses and costal water bodies. Actually it is not limited to surface water bodies as it also contains groundwater body (Q30092720). All coastal water body (Q16615865) in Sweden now has this property and it has proven to be extremely useful for verifying other claims for those items. Lake ID (Sweden) (P761) is a subscope of EU Surface Water Body Code (P2856). P761 is a external database key to VISS while P2856 is a external database key to Eionet. VISS contain fewer bodies of water (only Sweden, not whole EU) but contain much more information about them. As VISS is a subset of EU_CD and not a separate set, the keys are the same. (If VISS contain bodies of water that does not exist in EU_CD, like < 1 km², then VISS is a separate set, but with same key for the union of the sets). /ℇsquilo 06:25, 28 June 2019 (UTC)