Talk:Q515

vs. Q3957

For my purposes (places in Wisconsin, USA) I am treating the described town (town (Q3957)   ) size limit of 20,000 as a minimum population for a “city” (Q515)

subclass of Q15978299

I have removed the "subclass of: Q15978299" as not all cities are "municipalities with town privileges" —Hawke666 (talk)

subclass of Q6501447 and Q1048835

I have removed the 'subclass of: local government (Q6501447)' 'and subclass of: political territorial entity (Q1048835)' as "city" refers to the human settlement itself, not necessarily the government of that settlement.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City#Distinction_between_cities_and_towns —Hawke666 (talk)

• @Hawke666: A lot of items with instance=>city have properties that only apply to political entities, like "head of government" or "legislature" or are linked-to using something like "of jurisdiction". How should we resolve those property constraints? Should we add instance=>municipality to all of those city items? --Arctic.gnome (talk) 19:42, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that instance=>city does not imply instance=>municipality and instance=>municipality does not imply instance=>city. So both values have to be set if appropriate. The other way to go is to use more specific city-items, e.g. city in the United States (Q1093829). --Pasleim (talk) 21:28, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Can we assume that anything with instance=>city and one of the political values like head of government should have municipality, or is there another type of entity it could be? --Arctic.gnome (talk) 01:27, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Buenos Aires (Q1486) and Christchurch (Q79990) are cities but imho not municipalities. --Pasleim (talk) 09:25, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

• @Pasleim: Both of those cities have legislative body (P194) and head of government (P6), but the class "city (Q515)" is not a subclass of political territorial entity (Q1048835), so if those cities have a head of government, they must be something else in addition to city (Q515). They must be an instance of some kind of political territorial entity (Q1048835). --Arctic.gnome (talk) 17:44, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I added federal district (Q475050) to Buenos Aires (Q1486) and territorial authority of New Zealand (Q941036) to Christchurch (Q79990). The problem is now that territorial authority of New Zealand (Q941036) is yet only a subclass of administrative territorial entity (Q56061) and not of political territorial entity (Q1048835). How do we proceed? There are many items which should be subclass of both administrative territorial entity (Q56061) and political territorial entity (Q1048835).--Pasleim (talk) 18:39, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I admit to being unfamiliar with New Zealand’s system (or Argentina’s), but it seems to me that the choice is to either apply administrative territorial entity (Q56061) and political territorial entity (Q1048835) separately as appropriate to each item, or to create some new items — maybe “City (New Zealand)”, “Territorial Authority District (New Zealand)” and region of New Zealand (Q216712) (already existing) and make those appropriate subclasses and apply to their respective New Zealand items. Of course, if some cities/districts/regions are political entities and some are administrative entities then you might have to apply those separately anyway. Hawke666 (talk)

There's also Wellington (Q23661) that's marked as a city but not a municipality. It's not an administrative area at all. There have also been periods when London (Q84) had no administrative body. There may also be situations where multiple cities are contained in the same municipality. Ghouston (talk) 20:57, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Another example: Rotterdam (Q34370) is a city within Rotterdam (Q2680952) municipality. Ghouston (talk) 20:59, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

If city not ATE

then you disrupt one of the fundamental constraints for located in the administrative territorial entity (P131): value-type constraint (Q21510865)=instance of (Q21503252) of administrative territorial entity (Q56061). Please participate here: Property talk:P131#City: ATE or not ATE. --Infovarius (talk) 16:42, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Label in French

Hi,

This items looks very strange to me as a French man. In France, « ville » or « cité » are very fuzzy concepts. I see that the label has been change several times and there was some discussions (see User talk:Feldo beetween Feldo and Zolo) which end with the « ville » choice (but why not add « cité » as an alias ?).

So what is this concept exactly about ? In English, the description says « permanent settlement larger than a town, generally with a population of at least tens of thousands » (but simply « large and permanent settlement » in en-CA and an-GB…) and :

• in German it's « größere, zentralisierte und abgegrenzte Siedlung »
• in Spanish « entidad de población »
• in Italian « insediamento umano esteso e stabile »
• in French « ville importante au sens historique ou politique »
• etc.

Most descriptions are about the size/the population (wich is quite eutral) but the French description add a strange subjective meaning « historique ou politique » which seems a bad idea to me (it's more the definition of « cité » than « ville » a bit like the british city concept used in City status in the United Kingdom (Q1867820)). Plus the French description is circular (again a bad idea).

Any objections for changing the French label to something more like the English description : « Agglomération urbaine importante avec une population de plusieurs dizaines de milliers d’habitants » (wich fits too to the definitions in the French dictionnaries).

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 11:28, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like a very good idea to me. —Hawke666 (talk)

Agree (yes I the current definition seems to correspond to "cité" but the item is really more about "ville", even though various languages may have various criteria for what constitutes a city). --Zolo (talk) 18:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I also agree. It does seem odd to me that the current French link is fr:Cité, with its various technical or irrelevant meanings, and not the normal ville. Note that most of the other links go to the most usual word in other languages for a large urban agglomeration. What do people think of replacing fr:Cité with fr:Ville here? Lesgles (talk) 03:44, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lesgles: Why do you think "normal ville" is equivalent to "city" in English? @LD: are you sure that fr:ville don't worth more broad item? --Infovarius (talk) 07:23, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

How is this item different from city (Q15253706) ? That item has a subclass city in the United States (Q1093829) . Was that a mistake? Jefft0 (talk) 22:43, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

• "City" in English is a kind of title that doesn't necessarily relate to the size of the population, e.g., we have Freeport (Q2489863), population 5. I'm not sure if it's even a useful multilingual concept. Ghouston (talk) 02:51, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
• city in the United States (Q1093829) is supposed to be for US administrative cities, which I suppose includes Freeport (Q2489863). Maybe there is no single definition of "city" except as defined per-country. E.g., The UK and Australia have similar systems in which certain places are designated as cities, without a strict population requirement. So maybe we should only have "City of the UK" or "City of the USA" and not "City" as a vague and undefinable concept. Ghouston (talk) 02:06, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Bonjour @VIGNERON: le concept de Cité (civitas) appartient aux époques antiques, bien qu'on parle encore de cité phocéenne pour désigner Marseille, il n'y a pas de reconnaissance de "cité" dans le Code général des collectivités territoriales ou dans la nomenclature de l'Insee. On parle cependant aussi de "cité" pour désigner une banlieue française dans le langage courant. Mais le concept de ville-commune est plutôt claire au regard du Code général des collectivités territoriales et de l'INSEE. Il est admis par l'INSEE et plusieurs géographes de distinguer le concept de ville selon son envergure démographique et d'autres critères: commune, agglomération, métropole, etc.

La définition de Cité s'inscrit dans un contexte politique, militaire, administratif et historique.

La définition de ville ne repose pas seulement sur "un groupement d'humains" mais sur la distribution des compétences administratives ; et de la différence caduque entre ville et campagne qui se fonde sur le taux subjectif d'urbanisation. Seuls certains quartiers se définissent par leurs aspects historiques, culturels ou économiques. La définition française est complexe et hyper moderne et est souvent rattachée à la démocratie. Avant cela, lorsqu'on en parlait avec un concept, on parlait plutôt de bourgs ou de villages, sauf pour les lieux de pouvoir qui étaient fortifiés ou religieux dans ce cas on employait le mot ville.

Plutôt favorable de décrire la ville pour un groupement de population comme tu l'as suggeré.

Hm, I'm sorry for English speakers, actually that's pretty hard to explain this concept for me. Let me give a try.

Cité from lt. civitas is not used in French laws and never was. Cité is only used to describe ancient cities, although we use it for Phocean city to mean Marseille and a French suburb in everyday language. The concept of ville-commune is rather clear with regard to the general code of local authorities (law code) and the INSEE (National statistical institute).

On the other hand, INSEE and several geographers distinguish by different categories the concept of Ville according to its demographic size and other criteria: municipality, agglomeration, metropolis, etc.

The definition of Cité is part of a political, military, administrative and historical context.

The definition of Ville is not based only on "a group of humans" but on the distribution of administrative skills; and the obsolete difference between ville, campagne which is based on how much the area is urbanized. Only certain districts are defined by their historical, cultural or economic aspects. The French definition is really messy and modern and is often linked to democracy. Before that, when we mean it with a concept, we were using of bourg or village terms, except for the places of power which were fortified or religious in this case we used the word "ville".

Rather favorable to describe the Ville as a population group as you suggested.

--LD (talk) 22:20, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

@LD: merci pour ces explications, cela confirme que le choix de "ville" en libellé en français est correct. Par contre ces explications ne concernent que la France alors que cet élément est général concerne le monde entier et l'ensemble de l'histoire, les explications restent utiles mais ne sont pas totalement pertinentes ici. Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 23:15, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

subclass of Q56061

is this really a subclass of administrative territorial entity (Q56061)? for me this is a mix-up of two different concepts. 109.164.242.82 16:36, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I think that it's accepted that it's not, as mentioned previously. If somebody adds it, it's probably to fix constraint violations elsewhere, and should be reverted. Ghouston (talk) 23:57, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Q7930989

The time has come. Let's move all languages which don't differentiate city from town into specific item - Q7930989, for the sake of accuracy. --Infovarius (talk) 21:04, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Infovarius: Can you please add Ukrainian Місто to this interwiki list too?--Krystofer (talk) 12:43, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

@Infovarius: Я не согласен с разделением. Это одно и то же. Нужно объединить Q7930989 (всего 7 интервик, которые не совпадают, а дополняют) → Q515 (196 интервик!). w:ru:Крупный город → w:ru:Город. Oleg3280 (talk) 17:48, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@Oleg3280: Как по-вашему переводится town на русский? --Infovarius (talk) 07:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

@Infovarius: Речь только о городе и крупном городе. В Википедии сделали перенаправление. Oleg3280 (talk) 15:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Так, намёк не понят. Тогда прямым текстом. И city и town переводят на русский словом "город", соответственно в обратную сторону перевод неоднозначен. Чтобы не пришлось выбирать, в какой из двух элементов засунуть русскую (и не только) статью, я создал третий. --Infovarius (talk) 22:08, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

@Infovarius нет, town обычно переводится на русский как посёлок городского типа. См. en:Urban-type settlement "This type of locality has been used in all 15 member republics of the former Soviet Union since 1922 when it replaced a number of terms which could have been translated by the English term "town"" См. также en:List of hromadas of Ukraine "...urban-type settlement (occasionally called towns)." Знаю что википедия - не АИ, поищу АИ на мои утверждения. Delasse (talk) 18:47, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

@Delasse: слышал о такой точке зрения, но... 1) вы хотите объединить urban-type settlement (Q2989457) и town (Q3957) и соответствующие английские статьи? если нет, то всё-таки это разные понятия? 2) что вы скажете о town Klang (Q856003) с почти миллионным населением? Hempstead (Q1583289) тоже хорошенький "посёлок". Можете сами поизучать список: https://w.wiki/39oi 3) хотелось бы вам или нет, но не только в русском эти два понятия смешиваются. Иногда даже в английском: city or town. --Infovarius (talk) 21:00, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

@Infovarius нет, конечно же объединять urban-type settlement (Q2989457) и town (Q3957) я не предлагаю. Посёлок городского типа - это специфическое постсоветское понятие. Вообще слова обозначающие населённые пункты различны во всех языках. Т. е. полного 1 к 1 соответствия нет ни в одном языке. Даже в таких близких языках как украинский и русский, например, слова "город" и "місто" не полностью совпадают по значению. Как и слова "село" и "село". Основной мой тезис в том что если мы имеем лишь четыре термина: английские city и town, и русские пгт и город, то соответствие должно быть такое city=город, town=пгт Delasse (talk) 07:54, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

@Delasse: В этом я соглашусь, что отличия между языками всегда есть. Но решением я вижу только создание отдельных элементов для этих понятий. Четыре термина? Значит, нужно минимум четыре элемента. И не надо стесняться появления ru@"город"=en"city/town in Russia", вон для тауншипов США уже созданы свои подклассы для каждого штата. --Infovarius (talk) 21:50, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

@Infovarius Я создал отдельный элемент city/town in Russia (Q106389302) для городов в России. Я всё равно считаю что него должно быть свойство instance of (P31) city (Q515). Но это можно обсудить будет отдельно. Delasse (talk) 06:37, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@Infovarius:. w:ru:Город, w:uk:Місто — это и есть

English: city

. Термин town (81 интервик) даже не рассматривается для объединения. Oleg3280 (talk) 09:29, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Talk:Q7930989. Oleg3280 (talk) 10:17, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

@Oleg3280: Аргументов от вас не вижу. Аргумент от меня: попробуйте убедить англоязычных, что Chekalin (Q197902) и Innopolis (Q4201239) (города в русском) - city. Infovarius (talk) 21:50, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Если выбирать только между двумя вариантами: назвать по-английски Chekalin (Q197902) и Innopolis (Q4201239) словами town или city, то многие англоязычные выберут city. Но вообще я создал отдельные элемент city/town in Russia (Q106389302) Delasse (talk) 06:35, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

City с сотней жителей? Пруф? И зачем было создавать ещё один элемент для российских городов, если я именно для этого создал city or town (Q7930989). --Infovarius (talk) 21:56, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@Infovarius city может и вообще не иметь жителей, см. к примеру список ru:Список населённых пунктов Нидерландов, имеющих права города. Я думаю city/town in Russia (Q106389302) лучше чем city or town (Q7930989) тем что его нельзя поставить в города не России. И тем что он instance of (P31) city (Q515). Delasse (talk) 09:05, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

@Delasse: я не против заполнения класса city/town in Russia (Q106389302), даже попробую сейчас его заполнить сам. --Infovarius (talk) 09:46, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Не получилось... Надо поменять значения в P31 не нарушая квалификаторов и источников, я не умею. --Infovarius (talk) 21:25, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Selfcontradictory

• has quality "population 10,000,000±9,900,000" (so from 100 000 to 19 900 000 - while Pekin in China has population of over 20 000 000 and is also a city)
  • Vatican is given as one of "model item" examples - while it is not a city and has population noticeably lower than 100 000

Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 11:25, 2 April 2022 (UTC)