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Wikidata:Properties for deletion/P8929

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P8929 (P8929)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus to delete this property and rename/repurpose religion or worldview (P140) to include "world view" — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 05:07, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted --Lymantria (talk) 05:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P8929 (P8929): (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Creation was done without clear consensus; duplicates political ideology (P1142) and religion or worldview (P140), with no consensus to replace them. What a mess. —Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:16, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was following the property proposal discussion and didn't participate, because my point of view on this question is mostly based on my philologic education and and not driven by questions of usability. But now a little theoretic input might actually be helpful in the discussion.
It appears to me, that one of the main problems is the different connotation of world view (Q49447) in different languages. The german word "Weltanschauung" has been used at least since the 19th century and has first been used by romanticistic artists and basically ment seeing the world as it is, without delusion. It has been adapted by the Nazis and saw a shift of connotation somewhat around 1930. There has been a lot of discussion of the term by german philosophers in post-war-germany, most notably Heidegger and Klemperer. The present denotation appears pretty hard to grasp. Duden defines «Weltanschauung» as «Gesamtheit von Anschauungen, die die Welt und die Stellung des Menschen in der Welt betreffen» (Totality of views concerning the world and the position of man in the world). This would most definitely include religions. And yet, «Religion oder Weltanschauung» (Religion or Worldview) is a well-used syntagma in german. So this definition appear not to grasp the every-day use of this term. ChristianKl wrote that social democracy (Q121254) is not fitting in the term «Weltanschauung», the same way anthroposophy (Q184719) does. So what exactly counts as «Weltanschauung» varies a lot. I don't have a lot of knowledge of the history of the english term «world view», but a quick search with google ngram (Link) reveals, that it has not been used until as recently as the 1970s. Since the history of the english term is much shorter, the meaning appears to be way easier to grasp and apparently matches the definition Duden gives for »Weltanschauung».
What are the consequences for this discussion? Having a catch-all property that can include all kinds of views, beliefs and convictions of political, religious or philosophic origin should in my opinion not be named «Weltanschauung» in german, since there's no universally agreed upon meaning.
Practical considerations: I would like to be able to specifically query for users by their religion and their political views. For example:
A list of anarchists and their religion (Query). Our data is obviously very incomplete, but I'd say that from a query perspective it's more useful to have fine grained properties. -- Dr.üsenfieber (talk) 04:42, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Keep: see: world view (Q49447) Maybe political ideology (P1142) and religion or worldview (P140) should thrown awy. --Succu (talk) 22:30, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Delete and rename religion or worldview (P140) to include ''world view''. This is entirely subjective and we are, I believe, trying to split a continuum into discrete parts. I vote to delete because its obviously confusing to have two items naming religion. Including world view with religion piggy-backs on the logic of that German law that started all this: the concepts are different, but not necessarily distinct. And for our purposes, they behave in much the same way. As to movement (P135), political ideology (P1142), and political alignment (P1387) I never felt anything wrong with those and they subjectively feel a bit further afield from religion or worldview (P140). Politics and Religion are also two massive and distinct spheres of public discourse and should, in the spirit of French Revolution (Q6534), be kept separate. --Matthias Winkelmann (talk) 18:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Delete - Per Matthias Winkelmann, this property is very confusing. Let's expand the use of religion or worldview (P140) to include worldview. Husky (talk) 21:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Comment If those who are the major users of religion or worldview (P140) find the proposal to expand its use acceptable, I agree that that is a better solution. ArthurPSmith (talk) 16:58, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Delete – this is a term often used as a catch-all in legislation to reflect 'sincerely held beliefs'. The exegesis of the 'political or religious' term is rooted strongly in an intent to protect political emanations rooted in religious belief, e.g. opposition to, say, mandatory public education as an emanation of the religious beliefs of some Amish groups. The formulation is legally beneficial in that it avoids fruitless discussion about whether a religiously-motivated view about public life should be protected as a religious view or not. It doesn't lend itself, however, to defining people. I see atheism (Q7066) as an argument, but atheism (Q7066) is a clearly religious position, even if it is often associated with a political emanation, secularism (Q216920) (there are religious secularists and there might be, at least in theory, atheists who believe there is some inherent worth in religious groups having some involvement with civil government).  – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ari T. Benchaim (talk • contribs) at 23:44, June 21, 2021‎ (UTC).
  •   Delete unclear term, it is much better to use existing other terms. --FocalPoint (talk) 18:14, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Delete duplicates existing religion property, no clear guidance on when to use this one vs that one. "Worldview" is a vague term which can refer to religious, philosophical or political beliefs. I think "worldview" is better expressed using separate properties for religious beliefs, philosophical beliefs, and political ideology, than trying to collapse all three into one. We already have properties for first and third, maybe we need to add one for the second. The boundary between them is generally clear enough in practice; exceptional cases can be debated individually rather than trying to use those as a justification to overturn a generally useful distinction. Mr248 (talk) 01:21, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weakly   Delete. I agree with what Ari said. Deryck Chan (talk) 14:47, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Delete From the property proposal: "Properties religion (P140) and political ideology (P1142) do not intersect nor overlap." I can't see the point of replacing multiple specific non-overlapping concepts with a single conflating one, other than deliberately muddying the waters (reasonable for political purposes, not for defining people, per Ari). If "Religionszugehörigkeit oder Weltanschauung" is a distinct concept with German legal scope, it possibly could stand alongside the other properties, but not replace them. Original proposal seems to be more of a messy conflation though. Salpynx (talk) 22:21, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Comment I have asked here for religion or worldview (P140) to be expanded in meaning to allow this to be deleted. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:20, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Delete I came across this property and was about to nominate it before realizing it's already here. As others have said above, redundant to religion or worldview (P140), which should have broadened instead of forked. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 22:13, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  Delete as confused, confusing and redundant to more specific properties. Not to say that more specific properties are axiomatically better—I think many properties are actually better as more general properties with qualifiers, but that's apparently not "the done thing". If we're going to have thousands of narrower properties, then at least be consistent. Consistency is absolutely critical for Wikidata to be even vaguely useful. Inductiveload (talk) 08:26, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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