Wikidata

Wikidata:Property proposal/health points

< Wikidata:Property proposal

health/hit points

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   Under discussion
Descriptionhealth or armor points of this video game, board game or role-playing game character
Representshealth (Q668136)
Data typeQuantity
Example 1Adam Warlock (Q130232493) > 250
Example 2Infested Girl (Q130232401) > 16
Example 3Mercy (Q28592386) > 225
Example 4Sniper (Q128164668) > 90
Example 5Sniper (Q128164668) > 50 (applies to part > armor (Q130232601))
Example 6Claude Speed (Q2721597) > 10
Example 7Claude (Q14805400) > 100
Example 8Zoey (Q65924442) > 100
Example 9Creeper (Q13164404) > 20 (applies to work (P10663) > Minecraft (Q49740))
Example 10Cacodemon (Q108324133) > 400 (applies to work (P10663) > Doom (Q189784))
Wikidata projectWikiProject Video games (Q8485882)

Motivation

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We have no way of modeling this so a property is needed

Discussion

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  •   Comment is this really within Wikidata:Scope? You can only look this up from the game data which makes this original research. Also how do you compare this across games? 100 hitpoints might be a lot for one game and not so much for a game where the weapons kill you at first shot. Matthias M. (talk) 21:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It can also be referenced from wikis about the game. Original research isn't the only option. -wd-Ryan (Talk/Edits) 22:01, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Wd-Ryan: Are you referring to Fandom/Wikia wikis and other player-maintained wikis? These are considered unreliable (due to it being user-generated content) on many other Wikimedia projects. Is this "allowed for" on Wikidata? EdoAug (talk) 22:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure if it makes the statement ineligible for inclusion altogether, but most identifiers can be entered as a reference. These websites, however, do not make the subject of the item notable. Either way, it isn't accurate to say health points wouldn't be found in any other external resource. For example, this random news article I quickly found references hitpoints (Not that this specific one is applicable).
    I'd also be fine with having this data in an existing property if there's a good one. -wd-Ryan (Talk/Edits) 23:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If someone for whatever reason wishes to ban Fandom as a source then this is not the right place to discuss it anyways Trade (talk) 22:30, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikidata has no general policy that declares player-maintained wikis to be unreliable. In practice it depends on the individual source. When it comes to information about these statistics I would expect those Wikis to be very reliable. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 19:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Naturally in some games 100 hitpoints will be a lot and in others very little. This is an issue of scaling and balancing and not something that affects the truthness of the statement Trade (talk) 22:41, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Comment This could be used on all items of Minecraft mobs. -wd-Ryan (Talk/Edits) 22:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Comment What about using properties such as has characteristic (P1552) (or something similar) and quantity (P1114) for the plethora of (video, board, role-playing) game attributes? A similar property is personality trait of fictional character (P9652). EdoAug (talk) 22:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    How about we just widen the scope to include board and role-playing games? Trade (talk) 22:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Trade: I'm referring to other types of attributes, such as strength, charisma, armour, running speed, mana, agility, dexterity, and the many other traits that characters may have in video games (but also other types of games), as well as health (and damage). Instead of creating bespoke properties for these, why not just have one for "gameplay trait of fictional character or item", or just use one of the aforementioned properties (and qualifier)? EdoAug (talk) 22:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Mechanics such as hit points and damage are largely universal across game genres and (arguable) inherent to most of them. Being able to spend skill points across multiple attributes for your characters is not Trade (talk) 23:17, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not all usage of other attributes include spending skill points. Health and damage are not static numbers, either – many non-player characters in RPG video games have an ever-changing array of numbers, such as Jaina Proudmoore (Q819585), whose health is different in various expansions of World of Warcraft, as well as spin-off games such as Heroes of the Storm and Hearthstone, where her damage and mana (resource) is also relevant.
    I am simply offering an alternative way of portraying these numbers in a way that may include a wider spectrum of similar traits. I don't really think specific properties are necessary, but I'm not too opposed to them either. I think it would be better to have a more open-ended property that would accommodate for multiple types of statistics (including health and damage... and mana, agility, running speed, level, et cetera). EdoAug (talk) 23:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree we need a property with a wider scope, there's going to be plenty of stats that only apply to items from specific games so a general purpose property in the same area as has characteristic (P1552) would likely work best. Taking Pokémon items as an example (I believe we have over 1000 of those at this point) it would be advantageous to be able to provide their base statistics: HP, Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed. Since these stats are quite relevant to gameplay it should be easy to find sources without having to resort to fan wikis. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 02:22, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with you, Lewis. Some kind of "has statistic" property with a number data type and units for each statistic type. (health point, attack point, etc.) -wd-Ryan (Talk/Edits) 17:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's something along the lines I meant. EdoAug (talk) 17:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @EdoAug, @Lewis Hulbert, @Matthias M., @Wd-Ryan, would you like to give your opinions? Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 19:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We need some kind of scope for that type of property to work. Otherwise it just becomes an unworkable mess Trade (talk) 14:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Oppose This type of data belongs in a specific fan wiki. The numbers aren't meaningful to non-players. Dexxor (talk) 00:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikidata is contributed by people active in different topics and have very different goals of contribution, so "not meaningful to non-players" is not a good reason against it. However we does have a Wikia equalvent of Wikidata (Wikibase Cloud), so I have no position for or against the property.--GZWDer (talk) 11:20, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The values are only comparable within other actors of the same game so a per game https://wikiba.se/ is the only option that makes sense to me. I am biased because I think this is the equivalent of en:WP:GAMECRUFT and I am not at all interested in these values as well. Matthias M. (talk) 19:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There are plenty of property proposals that doesnt interest me. Doesnt mean that it somehow doesnt belong on Wikidata Trade (talk) 11:39, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, this whole proposal process is mostly not about validity, but if people find it interesting. You can also get rejected when nobody replies. Also note that I did not vote against your proposal even though I raised concerns. On Wikipedia this kind of content would be removed and Fandom wiki (Q106513246) took over the niche. Maybe this wants to live in a Wikidata instanced hosted by Fandom, Inc. (Q20466202) instead? I am not sure where to draw the line and if this has been discussed already. I think even video game character classes like Sniper (Q128164668) and Sniper (Q56363410) are a bit of a stretch of what I assume this website is about. Matthias M. (talk) 09:54, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Actually, this whole proposal process is mostly not about validity, but if people find it interesting." Dunno. If i were to oppose any identifiers for scholarly papers with the reasoning that the subject bored me i can imagine it would get some push back
    Either way i think it would be beneficial for both of us if we had something like Wikidata:Arguments to avoid in property proposals Trade (talk) 18:20, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The thing with these numbers is that they are not comparable across game franchises. I can't imagine a situation where you would want to query for them on Wikidata instead of processing a table of health values collected by fans of the game, especially considering it's unrealistic to create items for every game entity that has health points. While there's nothing wrong with this property per se, we also need to take into account whether it's useful (external identifiers are often useful because they help with disambiguation and data reconciliation). Dexxor (talk) 21:51, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I cant imagine a situation where someone would want to compare health points across completely different games in the first place. If one wishes to query this property, limiting the results to characters from specific works or franchises shouldn't be too hard Trade (talk) 16:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "not meaningful to non-players" is not a good reason against. -- Jerimee (talk) 23:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Support (without comment) Jerimee (talk) 23:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Comment So far, fictional objects have been primarily modeled based on lore/story information, like we would describe/model a real object. So the focus was mostly on the fiction aspect, not the specific technical implementations in games or other works. But health points, damage, mana, strength, dexterity or number of weapon slots are purely gameplay-specfic technical details that developers apply to game characters for gameplay and balancing-related reasons and don't necessatily correlate with their lore-version. Adding properties like this and the other proposals could IMO shift the focus of the items to the rather specific, purely technical details of individual implementations. --2A02:810B:581:C300:6C68:1127:8BA5:DCF9 17:26, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As long as the properties are broad enough to be able to be applied to a wide range of fiction items i don't think it's an issue. As it is, hitpoints is a fairly generic statistic that exists in virtually all games featuring combat Trade (talk) 06:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Comment How would this work for characters with variable health points? For example, Nick Valentine (Q107028136) of Fallout 4 has health points which are dependent on player level. His HP is calculated as follows: 225 + (([Player Level] - 10) × 5). 1857a (talk) 23:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would just stick with the base HP. People can read the fandom page themselves if they want to calculate something more specific Trade (talk) 06:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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