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Previous discussion was archived at User talk:Marcus Cyron/Archive 1 on 2017-02-26.

2001:7D0:81F7:B580:DE6:2213:E282:2C48 (talkcontribs)

Hi! What exactly is there nonsensical about Special:Diff/1065442417? This item to my understanding is about type of marble (i.e. a class), so the "instance of" relation doesn't really apply. Now, after merging, this item is more accurately set as a subclass of (subclass of) marble. See also Help:Basic membership properties.

Marcus Cyron (talkcontribs)

"Hymettian Marble" is a marble. Marble is a stone class. Point. And it's a subclass of "greek marble". Point. I don't see you problem.

2001:7D0:81F7:B580:1166:1356:EBF9:ECC2 (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Hymettian marble"
Mike Peel (talkcontribs)
Marcus Cyron (talkcontribs)

Hallo Mike. This is a very, VERY complecated field. You have to imagine some 1000 gods and the researchers today still find new ones. Lists for example with the names of deities are some of the oldest writings in history of mankind. But this is not static. This changes. Nintinugga is an eary goddess, that later is part of a transformation of sumerian gods. It's a process, that did not heppens from today to tomorrow, but was ongoing until the end of this kind of religion with the christian and muslim expansion. Some of the gods merged, others become part or an aspect of an other deity. So yes, Nintinugga is at a point Gula and Bau/Baba. But before this moment, it was a independently godess. Over the centuries and in contact with other people, babylonians, assyrians, cassites, syrians and so on the system changed ofte, sometimes more, sometimes less. It was always fluid. So we need to have here a item for Nintinugga, one for Gula, one for Bau, one for Baba and at least also for their cross-entities. And this is truely a very problematic field. Here we would need a real expert. This would not be me. The whole system would need a scientific structure. Wolrdwide you don't have that much of those possible persons. On the other hand, Wikidata would give a phantastic structure for a catalogue of ancient mesopotamian gods. I try to think about it, maybe we can start here a project with external partners. Have to think about it.

Marcus Cyron (talkcontribs)

PS: end of this month I will be in UK. I'm invited to Warwick University and have an appointment at the Beazley Archive. To the second one becaus I want to inspire them with the possibilities of Wikibase.

Mike Peel (talkcontribs)

That sounds good, but complex! For now I've moved the enwp sitelink over to the other item. Have fun in the UK - it would be good if you could connect with @MartinPoulter: or Wikimedia UK while you're there!

Reply to "Nintinugga"
Wikielwikingo (talkcontribs)

Sorry. I didn’t intend to do such mess. I know that the german and italian articles refer to a sculpture which is in Altes Museum in Berlin, and the english, portuguese, spanish and swedish articles refer to a sculpture typus. I know that merging all of them is not exactly a fair procedure, but I thought it could be useful to have all that information gathered and available to readers and editors and later, as the articles would be made, change the links.
I see that now there’s no link between the german and italian articles, and it is needed. The german one is Apollo Kitharoidos (Berlin SK 44). The italian one is Apollo citaredo.

Sorry again, english is not my mother tongue.


Marcus Cyron (talkcontribs)

Is OK, was just my frustration in the first moment. The problem is - and this has happened already to us all - that sometimes we do things in a good meaning, that not just fix errors, but also cause some problems. Problem with such things is, that there's mostly more than one version of a statue. You have the typus (and yes, you were intentionally right, here must be a central object). And then the ancient copies of the sculpture and the modern ones could all have their own data item. I think I have sorted it now for the existing items in a way, there are not longer problematic issues.

Reply to "Apollo Citharoedus"
Epìdosis (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Ancient Greece - period?"

Hungarian labels for Hungarian people

Tacsipacsi (talkcontribs)

Please do not add Hungarian labels for Hungarian people (like here). Hungarian uses Eastern name order, so the person-in-question’s name is Zsiros Janka, not Janka Zsiros. (I also had to dig a bit to ensure her surname is Zsiros and not Zsíros, as diacritics is often just dropped in foreign sources.)

Reply to "Hungarian labels for Hungarian people"

<no value> for P570 for the living?

Tagishsimon (talkcontribs)

Do we really add <no value> to date of death (P570) for living people? If so, why? And if so, do we also add <no value> to the 4001 other properties the person has no value for. I don't think we do. Your edit on Ulrike Peter (Q26839360) is honestly the first occurrence of a NV in P570 for a living person I have seen... so much so that I write a report to see how frequent it is. 77 occurrences.

select ?item ?dob where {  
  ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5 . 
  optional {?item wdt:P569 ?dob.}
  ?item p:P570 [rdf:type wdno:P570] .}

Try it!

Marcus Cyron (talkcontribs)

@MB-one:, please take over. I can't.

MB-one (talkcontribs)

Hi @Tagishsimon,

whether living people should have a no value statement for date of death (P570) or no statement at all, is currently an undecided issue. A good reason to have the statement is data completeness and that in this way we have recorded the fact, that said person is indeed currently living, because they haven't died at the time when the statement was made. Not to have any statement can lead to the confusion whether the person is currently living or the date of their death just has not been recorded in Wikidata yet. That means less confidence in the actual status from the data at hand. On the other hand reasons against the statement could be, that some living people, who have Wikidata items could find it creepy, to even have a statement related to their death at all.

If you are interested in this topic, I would suggest that we bring this to the Project chat and discuss it there with the wider community. Until then I guess, we should preserve the status quo, which means, some items have a no value statement and others have no statement at all.


Tagishsimon (talkcontribs)

Hi @MB-one: The status quo, if the SPARQL query is to be believed , appears to be 77 items with the statement, and ... how many living people have we on wikidata ... without. So I think use of <no value> to denote "is still alive" is an innovation; currently I think we tend to presume that the lack of a date of death indicates living. I don't yet see how or why <no value> improves on the current situation.

The trouble I have with it is that my experience of <no value> tends to be for data which will not ever exist - e.g. the director (P57) value for 1900-1920 films which did not record who directed them, or the publication date (P577) for a film that was cancelled or not released. I have not seen it used to say "we have no data /yet/". And as I indicated above, there are 10s or 100s of properties for which we could say <no value>.

So, yes, maybe we should take it to project chat. Equally, it's no biggie; I was merely that surprised to come across it that I thought it worth discussing. thx.

Tagishsimon (talkcontribs)
Reply to "<no value> for P570 for the living?"
Marsupium (talkcontribs)

Wozu dient das item? Greek vase (Q41971267) scheint sich mir besser in die hiesige Ontologie von Klassen (dabei label immer im Singular) zu fügen als ein item für die Gesamtheit der Dinge einer Klasse? Könnten wir eine Weiterleitung auf Greek vase (Q41971267) daraus machen? Und ich denke Help:Label#Capitalization wird auch für das Deutsche angewandt und „griechisch“ sollte klein geschrieben werden.

Und anbei zu ein paar aus fehlende Properties umseitig:

Beste Grüße, M.

Marcus Cyron (talkcontribs)

Hallo, es besteht ein Unterschied zwischen der Gesamtheit aller Vasen und einer Vase. Das kann man nicht zusammen werfen. Das ist mit vollem Bedacht so angelegt und das kann man nicht mergen.

Marcus Cyron (talkcontribs)

Noch mal als Beispiel um die Sache vielleicht deutlicher zu machen: Niemand würde auf die Idee kommen, Mensch nach Menschheit zu mergen.

Marsupium (talkcontribs)

Ja das sehe ich schon, ich meine nicht, das beides das gleiche ist. Nur ist es hier nicht üblich, solche items so haben, soweit ich es sehe und ich sehe auch keinen rechten Nutzen. Vielleicht kannst Du mir auf die Sprünge helfen? Vielleicht ist Q19899872 eine Ausnahme, die einen bestimmten Sinn hat? Aber ich denke nicht, dass wir für jede Klasse X ein kollektives item „alle Objekte der Klasse X“ anlegen sollten.

Du hast die Bedeutung des items im letzten Jahr hier geändert und das (in seiner Bedeutung schon bestehende) item Greek vase (Q41971267) angelegt. Bedeutungsänderungen von items sollten in aller Regel nicht vollzogen werden, sondern stattdessen ein neues item angelegt.

Die Änderung hat gar unter Deinen eigenen Beiträgen für Schaden gesorgt: Zum Beispiel das von Dir hinzugefügte statement attic black-figure belly amphora (Q32186620)instance of (P31)  Greek vases (Q19899872) ist dadurch falsch geworden und wohl die meisten anderen, in denen Greek vases (Q19899872) verwendet wurde und wird.

Wir sollten die dadurch entstandenen Fehlverwendungen so lösen: die items mergen und die Bedeutung zu der von Greek vase (Q41971267) anpassen.

Marsupium (talkcontribs)
Marcus Cyron (talkcontribs)

Ich bearbeite diesen Bereich. Ich. Fachlich. Stehe am Anfang eines großen Projektes. Es wäre echt schön, wenn mir nicht immer Leute ohne fachliches Wissen dabei auf diee Füße treten. Hier passiert so viel Mist, um den sich Niemand kümmert. Wenn ich mit meinem Projekt fertig ist, wird es gut sein. Ich fühle mich echt genervt und bedrängt und ich bin es langsam leid!

Marsupium (talkcontribs)

Tatsächlich will ich nichts weniger als Dich zu bedrängen oder zu nerven. Es betrübt mich, dass es Dir nicht recht möglich erscheint, über problematische Modellierungen, Verwendungen von properties und Ähnliches zu sprechen und Lösungen zu finden. Das Reklamieren von Unterprojekten und der Profizienz in diesen im Gegensatz zu den „Leuten ohne fachliches Wissen“ sieht ein wenig nach en:WP:OWNBEHAVIOR aus und scheint mir wenig dienlich zu sein. Ich sehe, dass es manchmal mühsam ist, anderer Kommentare über strukturelle Fragen nachzuvollziehen; es ist allerdings mitunter notwendig; ich glaube, dass es kaum möglich ist, einen sinnvollen Beitrag zum hiesigen Projekt zu leisten, ohne sich eben ausreichend mit der Modellierung und damit, welche properties und Klassen wie miteinander verwendet werden, zu beschäftigen und sich im Zweifel zu koordinieren – so viel Arbeit es auch (sogar im Verhältnis zur Eingabe tatsächlich inhaltlicher Daten) sein mag.

Womöglich habe ich mich auch nicht recht verständlich machen können, das Problem hat mit fachlichem Wissen wenig zu tun. Siehe vielleicht doch noch einmal oben – oder eben nicht. Es ist in diesem Kontext unglücklich, dass alle items mehr oder minder miteinander verbunden sind und Inkonsistenzen sich auf die anderen auswirken und so nicht nur Teil in diesem Fall Deines Wirkens, sondern auch dessen der anderen sind, die zum Beispiel wie ich hier an einem stabilen Klassensystem oder auch der Verminderung von constraint violations arbeiten.

Vielen Dank immerhin für die Kenntnisnahme und vielleicht Geduld! Gutes Nachblättern und hoffentlich doch frohes Editieren!

Reply to "Griechische Vasen (Q19899872)"

Walter Gross cause/manner of death

Bossanoven (talkcontribs)

Could you please explain what this term means in English? As far as I understand this is neither a manner nor a cause of death. Gross's manner of death was suicide and his cause of death was cyanide poisoning.

Bossanoven (talkcontribs)

Sorry, his cause of death is actually unclear in English, it's not known to be cyanide poisoning.

Reply to "Walter Gross cause/manner of death"
Zolo (talkcontribs)
Marcus Cyron (talkcontribs)

You are right, this would be a sub-form. And I don't know why the doubled item is happened. Thanks for merging it.

Reply to "Ancient Greek vase forms"
Multichill (talkcontribs)

 :-) (hint: click human).

Nice work with the directors!

Marcus Cyron (talkcontribs)

we are borg resistance is futile you will be assimilated ;)

Reply to "Into Star Trek?"