Wikidata

Wikidata:Property proposal/has narrative theme

< Wikidata:Property proposal

has narrative theme edit

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Creative work

   Not done
Descriptionnarrative theme present in a work
Representstheme (Q1053916)
Data typeItem
Domainitem
Example 1Lord of the Flies (Q271764) → spirituality (Q168796)
Example 2Harry Potter (Q8337) → friendship (Q491)
Example 3Macbeth (Q130283) → revenge (Q1712140)
See alsomain subject (P921), narrative motif (P6962)
Wikidata projectWikiProject Narration (Q60007664)

Motivation edit

This is a property to separate themes from main subject (P921) in literary works. Lectrician1 (talk) 11:52, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion edit

Interesting. Are there any sources for that?—Shisma (talk) 21:34, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Shisma Here is the source I used for the examples: https://examples.yourdictionary.com/reference/examples/examples-of-theme-in-literature.html Lectrician1 (talk) 21:43, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can we narrow down what is and is not a valid narrative theme?-Shisma (talk) 21:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Shisma Not that I'm aware of. Lectrician1 (talk) 21:43, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Lectrician1: the english wikipedia has few examples:
  Support btw. --Shisma (talk) 11:06, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In German the label of main subject (P921) is "zentrales Thema", which includes abstract things. Does "subject" exclude abstract themes? Wouldn't it be better to change the English label of main subject (P921) to include themes (e.g. "main subject or theme"?) - "theme" is already an alias of main subject (P921). I would not add Harry Potter and Hogwarts as main subject (P921) of the Harry Potter works. The first is the main character (characters (P674) with narrative role (P5800) protagonist), the second a setting (narrative location (P840)). If the Harry Potter works are about friendship and bravery, this would be indicated using main subject (P921) (I just added it to the themes of self-discovery and death at Harry Potter (Q8337)).
"I'm not particularly concerned about moving current usages of main subject (P921) to this prop since themes are barely documented at the moment." How did you check? This is also relevant for later maintainance as main subject (P921) is currently used for themes and would be used afterwards for this purpose so statements would need to be moved on a regular basis. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 11:51, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Valentina.Anitnelav
In German the label of main subject (P921) is "zentrales Thema", which includes abstract things
The German Wikipedia article describes this difference and the definition of a literary theme in English well:
In English -language literary studies , a topic (also Main Idea ) is the basic and guiding idea of ​​a text. The subject is considered there - along with plot , characters , setting and style - as a fundamental part of literary fiction .
In German-speaking literature, where the focus is more on materials and motifs , the term has not been able to assert itself. Occasionally, however, the related term “ sujet ” is used here.
As I am an American student this property seems very relevant. The German article also correctly describes how in American school interpreting themes is important:
Importance in the American school curriculum
In the United States , the literary theme, or main idea, is one of the core subjects used to develop native reading skills . In middle school and the upper grades of elementary school, this concept was already widespread in the 1980s; since the 2000s, Main Idea has also been increasingly used in the lower grades of elementary schools (in New Yorke.g. B. currently taught from class 1). The idea underlying this teaching concept is that texts can only be understood if the reader learns to distinguish between details and the "bigger idea" that emerges from the sum of these details.
I would reccomend naming this property in German to be "literary theme".
Does "subject" exclude abstract themes?
In my opinion, yes.
Wouldn't it be better to change the English label of main subject (P921) to include themes (e.g. "main subject or theme"?) - "theme" is already an alias of main subject (P921).
No because then we would be conflating concrete and abstract things and this would make querying for themes harder. In the study of literature, themes are relevant, easy to identify, and should belong under their own property. "main subjects" however like I said, are concrete things which a theme is not.
I would not add Harry Potter and Hogwarts as main subject (P921) of the Harry Potter works. The first is the main character (characters (P674) with narrative role (P5800) protagonist), the second a setting (narrative location (P840)). If the Harry Potter works are about friendship and bravery, this would be indicated using main subject (P921) (I just added it to the themes of self-discovery and death at Harry Potter (Q8337)).
I think we have different definitions of "main subject". I understand your point of view, but in order for "main subject" to be useful and distinct from "theme" I think a more-closed definition is important. I see "main subject" as whatever is being concretely and mainly described. If a scientific paper is about chromosomes, than the main subject would be chromosomes. If a speech is about war, than the main subject would be war. If Harry Potter is about Harry Potter, than the main subject would be Harry Potter. I think it's pretty basic. I just want a property for theme to describe the abstract things that are manifested in a story. This way they can be tracked and looked upon for analyzing literary works just like how LitCharts and Sparknotes currently do, without conflating them with concrete things.
How did you check?
I looked at a lot of major literary work items when researching for this property and none of them documented themes.
This is also relevant for later maintainance as main subject (P921) is currently used for themes and would be used afterwards for this purpose so statements would need to be moved on a regular basis.
All you have to do is remove the alias of "theme". In order to stop confusion for the German label, it should be stated in the property instructions that it does not include literary themes. Lectrician1 (talk) 15:20, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The German wikipedia describes the idea of a theme in literature but it does not make a difference between central subject and theme (it makes a difference between motif and theme), even though it underlines that the main idea/theme should be abstract. Even the English Wikipedia describes a theme in literature as "a central topic, subject, or message within a narrative." (my emphasis). Based on these description one could think about <has narrative themes> as a subproperty of main subject (P921) (a theme in literature would be a special case of a main subject). I see the relevance of identifying and adding the central subject or theme to works (I do it myself, using main subject (P921)) but I still don't see the need to make a difference between abstract and concrete subjects on a property basis in Wikidata. Why should a speech (or a visual artwork) about war use main subject (P921) and a novel about war <has narrative theme>? And should a novel like All Quiet on the Western Front (Q207332) have both main subject (P921) World War I (Q361) and <has narrative theme> war (Q198)?
I had a look at the most used values of main subject (P921) for films: query. The by far most used value is World War II (Q362). I guess this should be a main subject (P921)? Then we have aviation and supernatural, serial killer, revenge, prostitution, terrorism, organized crime, time travel and dysfunctional family... - which property should they use (given these are really one of the main topics of the work)? The same query but for novels is here: main subjects of novels
"I see "main subject" as whatever is being concretely and mainly described.". This is not how it is used in Wikidata. Especially for visual art main subject (P921) is used for the subject that is not directly visible (e.g. wealth, beauty, youth, etc.) while depicts (P180) is about the things relatively directly visible (a girl, a pearl earring, etc.). For narrative works this property is currently used for the main subject of a work, no matter if it is described directly or using allusions and chiffres.
Maintenance is not only about removing one alias of a property in one language. You still need to monitor if people use this property the way it is intended. One of my biggest concerns is about maintaining the distinction between main subject (P921) and <has narrative theme> - to identify all statements made using main subject (P921) that should actually use <has narrative theme> and vice versa - and to communicate this difference to people that want to query Wikidata. If people want to get all narrative works about aviation should they use main subject (P921) or <has narrative theme>? If people want to get all narrative works about war they probably also want to get all narrative works about a certain war (like World War II (Q362)). Should they query both for all works with <has narrative theme> war (Q198) and main subject (P921)/instance of (P31)/subclass of (P279)* war (Q198)? Should civil war (Q8465) (a subclass of war) use main subject (P921)?
I agree that some work is needed in the area of main subjects/themes of narrative works. At the moment I doubt that this new property would be a solution unless a lot of work is put into establishing and maintaining the distinction between main subject (P921) and <has narrative theme> in Wikidata.
A first approach could be to identify recurring themes already documented using main subject (P921). Then we could think about property constraints (e.g. to be a theme an entity has to be of type x or should not be of type y). - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 20:10, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Valentina.Anitnelav I like how Google describes the difference between "main subject/idea" and "theme": Theme is an underlying message or moral conveyed throughout the story whereas "main subject/idea" is just what the story describes.
Why should a speech (or a visual artwork) about war use main subject (P921) and a novel about war <has narrative theme>? And should a novel like All Quiet on the Western Front (Q207332) have both main subject (P921) World War I (Q361) and <has narrative theme> war (Q198)?
If the novel about war involves the characters throughout the book struggling because of the war, then there is a lesson and it should use "theme". All Quiet on the Western Front (Q207332) should have both because it describes war and the war itself is a lesson served from the actions of the characters. Litcharts documents this theme as "The Horror of Modern War". There are cases like this one where the theme could to be described more in-depth in order to say what the moral being conveyed is. I'd recommend creating items for these. Here's what "Horror of Modern War's" could look like:
instance of (P31)theme (Q1053916)
main subject (P921)modern warfare (Q1348131)
emotionfear (Q44619)
When determining what themes a work has, looking to third sources is always helpful and recommended. We could maybe even require it.
If people want to get all narrative works about aviation should they use main subject (P921) or <has narrative theme>?
Main subject of course. "Aviation" cannot possibly be a theme because it teaches about no broader moral or lesson. Therefore it should always be in "main subject" and not "theme". Lectrician1 (talk) 11:08, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The difference you describe between main idea/subject and theme seems to be the difference the English Wikipedia makes between thematic concept and thematic statement ("a work's thematic concept is what readers "think the work is about" and its thematic statement being "what the work says about the subject"") Here, the thematic concept corresponds to what you call a "main subject/idea" and the thematic statements to what you call a theme. The examples you provide in your proposal (friendship, spirituality, revenge) are all thematic concepts, not thematic statements. The terms "Friendship" or "war" alone do not convey any message (in the sense of a proposition), moral or not. "War is horrible" does convey such a message, of course. So, according to the difference you make between main subject/idea (thematic concept) and theme (thematic message), friendship, spirituality, revenge all should use main subject (P921). But I believe that your original idea was to propose a property for the thematic concept (given your examples), not thematic messages, to make a difference (for example) between the person a biopic is about and the themes this biopic has.
I had a look at what themes LitCharts ascribes to The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Q191380) (themes of Notre Dame de Paris). The first theme mentioned is Gothic architecture (Q176483). If gothic architecture may be a theme, I can't see why aviation can't.
I'm also a bit worried about redundancy. As I understand you say that All Quiet on the Western Front (Q207332) should have both main subject (P921) war (Q198) and <has narrative theme> war (Q198) as it also describes war. But it seems to me that then all of the examples above should have both main subject (P921) spirituality/friendship/revenge and <has narrative theme> spirituality/friendship/revenge (I've never read Lord of the Flies (Q271764) but I think the other two do describe/portray friendship resp. revenge.
As a start I propose to work with main subject (P921) qualified with object has role (P3831)/theme (Q1053916) (see also my statement below). We may evaluate the results later and think about reproposing this property.
As to your idea to create own items for narrower themes (e.g. the Horror of Modern War): I think this is a good idea if it is established as a recurring theme. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 17:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To differentiate between recurring themes in literature and other subjects we could think about adding instance of (P31) theme (Q1053916) to all entities that are said to be themes in literature (e.g. Q316#P31). - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 11:51, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Oppose: I'm sympathetic to the idea and I understand the intention to make a difference between "real" themes and other main subjects (e.g. the person a biopic is about), but I'm still not convinced that it is useful and workable to have an own property <has narrative theme> besides main subject (P921) at this moment (this may change in the future).
To highlight themes (=thematic concepts) I propose to use main subject (P921) qualified with object has role (P3831)/theme (Q1053916). We may review this use of main subject (P921) in a year or so and decide if an own property may still be useful. It should be quite easy to move statements, then. The first advantage is that this approach is very flexible; it may be adapted to include other specific conceptions of themes/subjects/ideas. The second advantage is that people who want to get all works about a certain subject or want to indicate that a certain work is about a certain subject don't need to worry if they have to use main subject (P921) or <has narrative theme>; just use main subject (P921). If someone wants to highlight that this is actually a theme, the person may qualify the statement using object has role (P3831)/theme (Q1053916). If someone wants to query only for themes, this person may filter the results using the qualifier object has role (P3831)/theme (Q1053916). - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 17:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Neutral   Comment if accepted, at the very least, since it's a highly subjective subject, this property would need mandatory reference and some very good constraints (the "Not that I'm aware of." about restriction makes me fear this propert will be unusable otherwise). Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 14:02, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Oppose Libraries don't make a distinction between subject and theme when cataloging works. Themes are just broad categories describing what a work is about, that is, they are just a form of subjects. In library cataloging we assign important themes of works as subject headings, along with other more specific headings. If a work is about good and evil and also about superheroes, we assign both of these concepts as subjects. UWashPrincipalCataloger (talk) 17:37, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @VIGNERON, JAn Dudík, Valentina.Anitnelav, Shisma, Lectrician1:   Not done given 3 oppose votes and 2 in favor and the property discussion being stale. Given that libraries use main subject (P921) for both, it makes sense for us to do so as well. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 11:31, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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