Wikidata:Property proposal/motherboard

arcade system motherboard edit

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

Not done

Description	~~Arcade system hardware board~~ the system motherboard used by a hardware device
Represents	computer hardware (Q3966)
Data type	Item
Template parameter	`\|placa base=` and `\|sistema arcade=` in Ficha de hardware and Ficha de videojuego
Domain	property
Example 1	Tempest (Q1340846)→Atari Vector (Q63109245)
Example 2	Killer Instinct (Q973459)→Killer Instinct (Q63109134)
Example 3	F-Zero GX (Q1940315)→Triforce (Q1324477)
Example 4	Open Desktop Workstation (Q838593)→Pegasos (Q2067286)
Planned use	Almost inmediately, to be used in (Arcade) videogames infobox

Motivation edit

I want to create this as a series of properties to be used in Videogames infoboxes. This would be an alias for "Motherboard" instead. Namely, this is intended for the motherboard codename, specially in arcade machines, wich several ones uses the same motherboard. Amitie 10g (talk) 22:01, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notified participants of WikiProject Video games --Jean-Fred (talk) 17:04, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion edit

Comment Can you fix the examples? NMaia (talk) 01:12, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the proposed value. Is this a right value for items already existing in Wikidata (ej. the motherboard used in an arcade system)?

If I understand correctly, you would like to express Star Wars (Q54317)→Atari Star Wars Vector (Q17462637)?

If so, I have been wondering − shouldn’t we just use Star Wars (Q54317)platform (P400)Atari Star Wars Vector (Q17462637)? This is already used in the wild:

SELECT ?item ?itemLabel ?platform ?platformLabel WHERE {
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
  ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q7889.       # All video games...
  ?item wdt:P400 ?platform.     # ...whose platform...
  ?platform wdt:P31 wd:Q631229. # is an arcade system board.
}

Try it!

Jean-Fred (talk) 17:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Agree that platform (P400) could be used instead. Thadguidry (talk) 22:33, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

platform (P400) refers to the platform in general (Arcade, Nintendo 64, etc, wich is used already), while "Arcade system" refers to the details of the hardware (generic or codename of the motherboard). arcade system board (Q631229) is a statement, not a property, what we need for the infobox. "Hardware" could be also a name for this property. --Amitie 10g (talk) 15:44, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, at some level we get to decide what platform (P400) means :). You could argue the same way for console and PC games, that we should do something like:

Metal Gear Solid (Q6582527)platform (P400)video game console (Q8076)
Metal Gear Solid (Q6582527)<Hardware>PlayStation (Q10677) or
Star Wars: The Old Republic (Q737308)platform (P400)personal computer (Q16338)
Star Wars: The Old Republic (Q737308)operating system (P306)Microsoft Windows (Q1406)

The layout of the downstream infobox which will use the data is somewhat irrelevant: as far as I know, there is no need for 1-1 mapping between infobox fields and Wikidata statements − I think the infobox could be coded either way in the Lua.

(Not entirely sure what you mean by « arcade system board (Q631229) is a statement, not a property » − based on the definitions used here, it’s neither ;-))

Jean-Fred (talk) 08:51, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for fixing the example ; however one question: we can’t model free-text like « Proprietary MIPS based hardware system ». In this case, would it make sense to create an item for that particular hardware? Jean-Fred (talk) 08:52, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as no way to create free text, I'll take care to create new elements for missing ones, as you mentioned (see the examples above, I fixed them). --Amitie 10g (talk) 12:12, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Redundant with platform (P400). Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 19:29, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Visite fortuitement prolongée: read my comments above explaining why platform (P400) does not meet the requirements for this request. --Amitie 10g (talk) 22:04, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- - I strike my previous comment since you changed your proposal. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:30, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Informatics has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead.

Support --Tinker Bell ★ ♥ 22:39, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- I read again this, and now I think this would be ok only for hardware items. Videogames and other software could use platform (P400), so I suggest changing the examples. --Tinker Bell ★ ♥ 03:46, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support Sir Lothar (talk) 10:20, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support.--Vulp here 02:41, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Would it not make more sense to have a more generic "hardware" property and then use a qualifier to specify if it is the motherboard or another piece of hardware? --SilentSpike (talk) 20:20, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SilentSpike: Well, I guess that ship sailed already now that we have eg audio system (P7501). Jean-Fred (talk) 17:16, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jean-Frédéric: That property could still be deprecated. Now that I'm more experienced with Wikidata I definitely think a more generic property should be used along with a subject has role (P2868) qualifier. This way any piece of hardware can be captured without requiring it's own property. I've changed my original comment to an oppose. --SilentSpike (talk) 15:48, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
True that. That’s a valid point. There are 15 properties under Wikidata property for items about computer hardware (Q22969262), so potentially that would also apply to CPU (P880) and GPU (P2560) (maybe storage device (P4788) too?) Jean-Fred (talk) 17:03, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jean-Frédéric: what do you think about SilentSpike's suggestion above? − Pintoch (talk) 21:13, 23 July 2019 (UTC) (fix ping) − Pintoch (talk) 21:14, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment While I do see the need, I’m still unsure about that. As we define video game (Q7889) as creative work (Q17537576) (which then have various platform-realizations), then it does not have a “hardware” per se − after all, Street Fighter II (Q1133204) runs in my browser, it does not have a “motherboard” as is… (although admittedly this reasoning also applies to eg input device (P479) − but I’m no fan of that property for work-level items either). Jean-Fred (talk) 17:16, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Before claiming «then it does not have a “hardware” per se − after all», please keep in mind those games has been launched as Arcade machine first, and a browser is just an emulator for the hardware (arcade) the machine ran, so, this property is relevant for videogames first launched as arcade. See the examples I given, specially the Killer Instinct, having its own dedicated hardware, as most of the arcades. --Amitie 10g (talk) 20:32, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think we misunderstandood each other here. I don’t disagree that arcade games have specific hardware. What I mean is that the Q7889-items are about games as creative works: Killer Instinct (Q973459) is about both the arcade and the SNES versions − so the statements on that item should (mostly) be applicable to both (although we can use qualifiers to clarify that). For me it would be like using number of pages (P1104) on Les Misérables (Q180736) - sure, there was a first edition of Les Misérables which had a given number of pages, but that does not apply to all reeditions of the text.

I see that the new proposal is about “the system motherboard used by a hardware device” − that sounds good, but right now video games are defined as not being hardware.

My take-away is that arcade games/machines/cabinets are clearly very complex objects (both culturally and technically). I would like us to come up with a comprehensive modeling concept, because I really think that stuffing more data on Q7889 items is breaking left and right and won’t fly much longer (and not only for arcade) (I started writing some thoughts about that). For example, next, we might decide we need a property to model that cabinets are upright or cocktail (a valid data point to record, and an actual field in some Wikipedia infoboxes) − yet I understand that some games (like Space Invaders) were published on both cabinet types.

For example, maybe we need to create items about the machines themselves then (the 'package' cabinet+motherboard+display+audio system) − or maybe not if go down the road of splitting items per platform-realisation (or some yet other solution).

Jean-Fred (talk) 16:58, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Germartin1 (talk) 08:00, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm not familiar with nonfree arcade games: are games compatible with specific mainboards? I've looked a bit at the nonfree software history, like the DOS era through the LGR youtube channel (which according to the LGR (Q3820312) wikipedia disambiguation page is "an American YouTuber focusing on retro technology") and as I understand, in DOS, the userspace programs could take over the control of the computer, and also patch the software that is running if they wanted to, for instance by hooking interrupt handlers and so on. While they appear to have been drivers in DOS, many nonfree games didn't use them and instead directly implemented support for specific hardware like adlib or Sound Blaster 16 (Q7564654) compatible sound cards. In such case, the operating system (P306) and/or platform (P400) could be DOS (disk operating system (Q600659)), specific Microsoft Windows (Q1406) versions, etc, but would also be compatible with specific hardware chip (like the Yamaha chip that is in the AdLib Music Synthesizer Card (Q26883996) sound card or other compatibles sound cards with the same chip (Yamaha YM3812 (Q1684767))). Some games are also be compatible with a specific controller (3D gloves, 3D glasses, etc) while the game already runs on a operating system (P306) and/or an platform (P400). In the cases documented by LGR, the games had to be specially modified to support that kind of hardware, so it might apply to a specific version of that game. I'm also not very familiar with nonfree console games, Are there any situations where some games are made for a platform (Gameboy) but somehow only run on the Gameboy color? I'm interested in that as I proposed a Compatible property: Wikidata:Property_proposal/Compatible_with, so it might be interesting to find ways to precisely describe things regarding the compatibility with specific hardware or API, which is different from platform (P400) or operating system (P306). GNUtoo (talk) 00:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's probably super useful to document which motherboard a system has (that can be done through has part) but that's not what this is about. It's rather "compatible with a specific mainboard" or "platform -> [specific mainboard]" and as-is I think that other qualifiers like platform (P400) could be used instead, unless someone find information that would show otherwise as requested in my previous comment. It looks like platform (P400) is sufficient here, but if it's not, I've also proposed a "Compatible with" property that could work too if the platform is not a specific mainboard and that it's only compatible with specific mainboards, though I can't think of examples about that as I'm not familiar with that part of arcade games hardware. Maybe "compatible with" could be used if a video game is known to work on a specific mainboard but that people don't know why, or that the mainboard is listed as officially compatible. GNUtoo (talk) 20:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've done more research on that, and it seems that we have several kind of systems:
- Neo Geo had mainboards where you could plug cartridges inside, so it acts like a game console.
- According to an LGR review of a "mainboard", the game and the mainboard seem to be really tied together in people's mind. To me it looks like the game is on some memory chip and could somehow be swapped, but people generally expect the game and the mainboard to be the same thing. Could platform (P400) still make sense here as the game is software that is made for a platform (a given mainboard here), or is platform expected to be something more generic? What about Game & Watch series (Q215034) ? Is that a Platform?. In that case do we need some Compatible property or would a mainboard property still make sense? GNUtoo (talk) 05:28, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Amitie 10g, Jean-Frédéric, NMaia, Thadguidry, Visite fortuitement prolongée: @Tinker Bell, Sir Lothar, Vulphere, SilentSpike: @Pintoch, Germartin1, GNUtoo: Not done Stale proposal. There seems to have been a lot of interest but a lack of consensus on how to do this. Please take the above comments into consideration in any new proposal along these lines, and reference this discussion. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]