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Wikidata:Property proposal/madhhab

madhhabEdit

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   Under discussion
Descriptionschool of thought (Q1387659) within fiqh (Q484181)
Representsmadhhab (Q209928)
Data typeItem
Domainbiography
Example 1Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari (Q316349)Malikism (Q48221)
Example 2Morocco (Q1028)Malikism (Q48221) (example of the property used to describe a country)
Example 3Al-Mawardi (Q335635)Shafi`i (Q82245)
Example 4Abu Dawood (Q336558)Hanbalism (Q233387)
Example 5Jābir ibn Zayd (Q6035355)Ibadi (Q243551)
Example 6Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani (Q560078)Ẓāhirī (Q140592)
Example 7Muhammad al-Shaybani (Q293612)Al-Mawardi (Q335635)
Example 8Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni (Q2973730)Ja'fari jurisprudence (Q685567)
Example 9Idris Imad al-Din (Q7660476)Isma'ilism (Q230386)
Sourcew:Madhhab
Planned useMuslims (mostly scholars and imams), muslim countries, madrassahs, and other Islamic educational institutions

MotivationEdit

This is my first time i suggest a property, maybe a Muslim user or any interested user can help me. Ruwaym (talk) 10:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

DiscussionEdit

  Comment This property, if I understand where you're going with this, seems similar to movement (P135), although that property does not seem to be used with religious subgroups. Perhaps the scope of this property can be readjusted to allow for use with other religious schools of thought? Mahir256 (talk) 16:20, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

  • Please provide examples. Otherwise, why aren't the schools of thoughts values for religion (P140)? ChristianKl❫ 08:02, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
@ChristianKl: I have added the examples as requested. Thoughts? --Trade (talk) 22:18, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
I explained her. About "why aren't the schools of thoughts values for religion", If you mean we put "maddhab" on same property under religion, (like Q67180122), I guess It is not standard. For example a Muslim religion is "Islam", his maddhab can be "Hanafism", his movement can be "Islamic modernism". I ping @باسم: from Arabic Wikipedia, he knows better. --Ruwaym (talk) 10:57, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Madhhab should go under Religion naturally, particularly under Islam, like @Ruwaym: said. For Example: A Person's religion would be Islam, his sect would be Sunni, his madhab would be Hanafism.
movement (P135), in Islam, would be to discribe if he is a Salafi or Ash'ari, in other words is to show what theological school or movement he / she belongs toباسم (talk) 11:18, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
@باسم: Most items uses religion (P140) to describe if someone is a salafi or sufi. Do you want this changed? To @Ruwaym:, do you want this property to be limited to persons? Or do you think it should be used on countries, organizations and madrassas as well? --Trade (talk) 22:07, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Trade you mentioned a good point, Maddhab is all about education ,Traditional at madrassahs, Modern days at universities. So, you changed my mind, This property also can be used for madrassahs, and other Islamic educational institutions. About countries can be used too, like Iran mentioned in it's constitution The official religion of Iran is Islam and the Twelver Ja'farî school [in usul al-Dîn and fiqh], and this principle will remain eternally immutable. Your examples are good, however not famous ones. Also remember for this property, One is not enough, many scholars changed their maddhabs, or madrassahs for all madhhabs. --Ruwaym (talk) 05:43, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
@Trade: It's not correct to describe Salafism or Sufism as a religion as in religion (P140). They are not even sects in Islam like Sunnism and Shi'ism, they are schools of thought, so they would fit better with movement (P135), or with their own seperate property. Bestباسم (talk) 06:02, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
@باسم: I'm not saying they are religions, i'm just pointing out how people currently are using the property. We might start a discussion on the project chat about the scope of the 'Religion' property. @Ruwaym:, i have tried to update the proposal to include more famous scholars. --Trade (talk) 14:49, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
In the Christian context it's common to see subsets of Christianity like Mormonism (Q747802) as being religions. It seems to me like the relationship between Sunni Islam and Islam as a whole is comparable to that of Christianity and Mormonism (Q747802). Do you consider that to be a qualitatively different relationship? If so, what's the nature of the difference?
Enwiki seems to consider Ibadi (Q243551) to be a valid value for the religion of Said bin Sultan (Q506193). In the examples here that is suggested as the mathab of Sulaiman al-Barouni (Q2440021) but not of that of Said bin Sultan (Q506193). What kinds of problems do you see with that modelling decision of enwiki? ChristianKl❫ 17:05, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
@ChristianKl:I do not know why i added Ẓāhirī (Q140592) as a a valid value for the madhab of Said bin Sultan (Q506193). Since it seems to be wrong i've decided to replace him with someone better known. @باسم: and @Ruwaym: you might wanna view his comment. --Trade (talk) 23:13, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
@ChristianKl: Differences between Madhhab in Islam and Christian denominations? Well, I can show this map and this article. @Trade:, I can help you for more famous scholar for each maddhab: Muhammad al-Shaybani (Q293612) for Hanafi, Al-Mawardi (Q335635) for Shafi'i, Abu Dawood (Q336558) for Hanbali, Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni (Q2973730) for Ja'fari, Idris Imad al-Din (Q7660476) for Isma'ilism and Jābir ibn Zayd (Q6035355) for Ibadi .--Ruwaym (talk) 00:39, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't think that the "Sects in the Islamic World" article supports the claim that no correspondence exists here. It says "The principal difference between a madhhab and a denomination as the concept is normally understood (and as denominations exist in theWest) is that a madhhab is not really an organized body."
When we speak about Christian denominations in their role as subclasses of Christianity we are not focusing on them being organized bodies. ChristianKl❫ 13:22, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
@Trade: Hey, how is this property feels?!--Ruwaym (talk) 16:21, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
  Support I'll be okay with it as long as it can be a qualifier to religion (P140) --Trade (talk) 23:39, 16 October 2019 (UTC)