Wikidata:Requests for deletions/Archive/2018/03/04

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novalue

N/A (Q19970288): abbreviation for “not applicable”: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)
N/A (Q21686005): abbreviation for “not applicable”: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs | discussion)
N/A (Q36610580): abbreviation for “not applicable”: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Should be replaced with special value novalue or, for silent movies with intertitles, replaced with the true language. --Pasleim (talk) 13:45, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

I think it's being done for the first one (the item makes it easier to add the statements), but the other ones are not synonym with no-value. No dialog means the film has no spoken dialogue. It could also be that someone speaks but none understand the explanation, but this isn't meant here.
Deletion of these wouldn't add any value to Wikidata, but their existence should explain it to people, even those not interested in dialogir.
--- Jura 14:55, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

The value added is for example for people who to create a list of all languages that they don't end up with language "N/A". --Pasleim (talk) 17:47, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

I think we should be able to work this out in one way or the other without deleting the items. It all depends on the query and application. When looking at ISO 639-3 they do need to end up with this.
--- Jura 07:30, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Delete As those are only used with original language of film or TV show (P364) which is defined clearly to be DELETED in the near future, there's no need to create too lots of faux BCP47 things. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:16, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Temporarily Keep N/A (Q21686005) because it's used by a lot of items and the associated property is used by many infoboxes. Delete N/A (Q36610580) as it has only 1 use and the labels are untranslated. Delete N/A (Q19970288) as it has already been completely disused. Eventually migrate all and Delete. Deryck Chan (talk) 14:59, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
- For items in use, the number of uses and lack of translations are not valid reasons for deletion.
  --- Jura 06:31, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
  @Jura1: So the possible replacement is still a valid reason, isn't that?! --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:30, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Comment From the edit history of Q12628328 it seems that even contributors who attempt specialize in language properties don't get the suggested use of "no value" and the use of Q21686005 fortunately re-added makes things clear.
--- Jura 06:25, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Jura1: That's another reason that I now support deletion of P364, since that property can only white wash edit war (Q764327). --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:24, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
The edits on Brcko u Zagrebu (Q12628328) were only possible because there are 2 language properties and 2 ways to indicate novalue. It's clear that if we stay with this model edits like on Brcko u Zagrebu (Q12628328) will happen again and again and causing edit wars, maintenance works and headache for data users. If we change to 1 language property and 1 way to indicate novalue we get rid of all these issues. --Pasleim (talk) 12:17, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Let's try to focus on the question at hand (whatever property is being used): how to indicate the language of a silent film? Croatian and "novalue" clearly doesn't help us identify what it is. N/A (Q21686005) makes it clear for everybody and it's the recommended way of doing so. Obviously, no approach is comes naturally to new users, especially if they don't bother looking at descriptions.
--- Jura 13:09, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't think at all that "Croatian" and "n/a" is clear for everybody. As I proposed above, for silent movies only the true language should be used (language of intertitles, language of the actors even if not recorded) because both P364 and P407 refer to the language of work, not to the languge of spoken words. That a silent movie is silent is independent of the information about the language of work. --Pasleim (talk) 10:05, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
"novalue" you suggest is similar to the "n/a" you don't think is clear. The solution we currently have is "original language .. " = "n/a (silent film)". With the description "use with property:P364 (original language of work) for silent films". That does seem much clearer. At least if one reads. As for Croatian, maybe one should specify what it applies to. Maybe we can work on your original problem/query/application instead: where do you think people shouldn't get language "N/A"?
--- Jura 04:14, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

@snipre: --59.63.248.148 23:04, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

@Pasleim, Jura1, Liuxinyu970226, Deryck Chan: I don't know why I was ping: as stated by some contributors, the WikiProject Movies documentation "is fairly clean, complete and even noise can be removed without much problem" so everything about modeling subtitled movies should be explained there.

The only good solution is to get ride of this mix of original language/work language which is here clearly showing a weakness:

If a dubbed movie used both language/work language properties, how can we distinguish between a dubbed movie and a subtitled movie ?

The case of N/A (Q21686005) is quite simple: why don't use instance of (P31): silent film instead of trying to use a complex modeling which is not understood ? Instead of creating unknown languages like N/A (Q21686005) better simplify the system with a good use of instance of (P31) in combination with one language property.

Then I am quite sure the WikiProject Movies will provide the good explanation about how a subtitled movie has to be declared in a short time. Snipre (talk) 11:23, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree with User:Snipre here. We got ourselves into this situation because we tried to shoe-horn silent movies into a data structure designed for movies with dialogue. Snipre, do you know who are the maintainers of the relevant templates so we can invite them to this conversation? Deryck Chan (talk) 13:42, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Note: @GAN: used N/A (Q19970288) in 1966 Amstel Gold Race (Q1898106), I don't know what means that. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:21, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Liuxinyu970226: Попытка сделать через quick statements поля для дальнейшего заполнения вручную нужными значениями. — GAN (talk) 11:24, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
  - @GAN, Liuxinyu970226: I think GAN's script quick_statements operation made a mistake. Here are the correct values: [1] Deryck Chan (talk) 14:24, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
    - @Deryck Chan: This is not a script error. It was so conceived. Trying to make 10 one-kaovyh values to create lines (so as not to look for the "Q" number of the cyclist), and then to replace them with the ones you need manually in the "text name". Translated with Google Translator — GAN (talk) 16:08, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
      - @GAN: I understand your intention, but your edit didn't supply the name of the person. The correct method is to use "no value" (the box on the left that lets you choose between "custom value", "no value" and "unknown value") and then use object named as (P1932) to write down the actual name of the person. Deryck Chan (talk) 18:31, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

P735 conversion item

N/A (Q19970288): abbreviation for “not applicable”: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

is currently used again. I will asked for the values to be converted, but it's needed periodically to complete data. Its temporary use shouldn't have any negative impact.
--- Jura 20:51, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@Jura1: What tool uses this as a placeholder? I think we should edit the statements on the item to explicitly state that this is a placeholder item, but we need to do it without breaking the tool. Deryck Chan (talk) 21:12, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Feel free to do so. It's already noted in the (English) description.

I use it with QuickStatements or PetScan. @Deryck Chan: How do you usually add novalue statements?
--- Jura 21:17, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@Jura1: I haven't done a mass import that needed novalue before. I think pywikibot can add novalue statements. Deryck Chan (talk) 11:24, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

In the meantime, we need a solution. Maybe somebody else does?
--- Jura 11:47, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I can add with my bot novalue but for this I don't need N/A (Q19970288). Just send me a list of items which need novalue and I add them. If there should be many requests to add novalue, I can also make a tool on Toolforge. --Pasleim (talk) 13:39, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

You could convert it periodically, as you have done in the past. Maybe Liuxinyu970226 can suggest a solution how we could add these.
--- Jura 14:51, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

@Jura1: I could only make suggestions based on how merging or deletion are possible for all 3 items listed here, as I'm now one of the contributors who are opposing original language of film or TV show (P364), if your comments are still based on vote keeps, then nothing more I could suggest. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:43, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

This is unrelated to the discussion of the property itself. So we still need to find a solution beyond mere deletion. np.
--- Jura 17:22, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Discussion (cont)

~~So Jura1 you even agreed to delete it? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:51, 13 December 2017 (UTC)~~

@C933103, Deryck Chan, Jura1, Pasleim, Snipre: Since all 3 items mentioned under this section are likely about this question (which we discussed (whooa?) within 0.45 km high section): should we delete original language of film or TV show (P364) or not? I started Wikidata:Properties_for_deletion#FINAL_VOTE:_Suggested_closure_reasons (it's true, damn true to decide the FINAL resolution for P364). --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:43, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I don't feel strongly either way as to whether we should fold the three "(original) language [of item]" properties into one. Deryck Chan (talk) 15:06, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Delete on N/A (Q21686005) and N/A (Q36610580). I strongly believe that Q21686005 should go - it mixes two different statements, "has no sound" and "has no language". Even though Q36610580 is relatively clean, its use as an "original language of work" is not. N/A (Q19970288) at least aknowledges that it's a hack - I'll leave it to people more experienced than me to vote on that one. And I will name my firstborn daughter Nova Lue NisJørgensen (talk) 14:29, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- @NisJørgensen: what is your suggestion to indicate the same on multiple items?
  --- Jura 17:19, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

@Jura1:, I am not sure I understand your question. As I see it, "N/a (silent film)" can be deleted or replaced with "no value" - the movie having instance of (P31) silent film (Q226730) should be enough, combined with "no value" for language if applicable. N/A (Q36610580) should probably be does not have part (P3113) dialogue (Q131395), if applicable combined with "no value" for language. Is this what you ask? NisJørgensen (talk) 19:28, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

@NisJørgensen: These items are to be used in a specific context, to convey information based on the model outlined at WikiProject Movies. If we delete the item, this makes a hole in the outlined model. Obviously, people can vote/comment here without participating in WikiProject Movies (or even edit movie items/Wikidata at all), but I think the general ideas one does measures the effect and is interested in contributing to build these items.

Currently N/A (Q21686005) is used as value for original language of film or TV show (P364). We could omit the statement, but for consistency with other films, it's preferable to add a statement.

If we merely add "no value", it's not clear why this is added in P364. Besides that, I don't see a way to add "no value" to more than one item at the time. Do you?
--- Jura 06:55, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

I am an "end user" of movie data, at the Danish Wikipedia, and I am commenting mostly from that perspective. I have so far mostly contributed to wikidata by participating in discussions. This may change. My main issue is that "silent film" is orthogonal to "language" - a silent movie can include language, a non-silent movie can be without it. I would have no big problem with a value of "none" - only it seems "no value" is meant for exactly this type of situation: We know that no applicable value exists. I cannot see another meaning of "no value" in original language of film or TV show (P364) than "the film has no language". I think "the property contains the value iff one exist" is just as consistent as "all items must have a value for this property".

I have no experience editing multiple items at a time. NisJørgensen (talk) 14:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

If these are all having no sitelinks, then how about merging rather than deleting?--60.26.9.197 08:43, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

It is technically not possible to merge items with the snaktype novalue. --Pasleim (talk) 10:09, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

@Pasleim: But in this case, I recently tried between Q19970288 and Q21686005 and it's actually done (though reverted by myself): Special:Diff/622538050. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:30, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Ok, but then statements like instance of (P31)=given name (Q202444) and subclass of (P279)=languoid (Q17376908) should be removed. --Pasleim (talk) 11:20, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Done as nobody opposed the proposal to merge the item, I have done it.--Pasleim (talk) 01:17, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Q12508681

Q12508681: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Non-notable item. ··· 🌸 Rachmat04 · ☕ 18:23, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 01:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Q3227990

Q3227990: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Doesn't meet the notability policy Kostas20142 (talk) 21:30, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 01:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Q29535439

Q29535439: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Empty item, no notability, no structural need BohemianRhapsody (talk) 15:10, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Done --Alaa :)..! 02:59, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Q50325060

Q50325060: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Blank item --Tigerzeng (talk) 10:11, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mbch331 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 10:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Q50326675

Herbert Helgesen (Q50326675): Norwegian resistance fighter during World War II: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs) the item was created by accident and needs to be deleted. I have created another item that will be used --Torbu (talk) 08:37, 4 March 2018 (UTC)