User talk:Shonagon/Archive 2

Petite rectification sur Paul Acker (Q3370422)

Bonsoir,

En cherchant à sourcer et étoffer la notice de Paul Acker (Q3370422), je me suis aperçue d'une erreur d'identification dans Leonore, importée par ShonagonBot.

Paul Acker n'a pas eu la légion d'honneur mais la croix de guerre (sources posées sur les statements).

J'ai également supprimé la référence à la LH, qui pointait en référence sur un homonyme, Jean-Baptiste Acker, alsacien comme lui, né la même année, mais pas Paul-Théodore Acker ;)

J'ai aussi ajouté un sourçage vers le Souvenir français et vers Mémoire des hommes (dommage qu'on ne puisse pas encore y faire de permalien).

Très cordialement, --Hsarrazin (talk) 04:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Merci beaucoup Hsarrazin pour les précisions et ces corrections. Pour information, l'alignement –partiel– avec Léonore avait été fait localement en semi-automatique. Comme il y avait pas mal de cas d'homonymes sur un alignement nom et date de naissance, et que la guirlande de prénoms d'état civil ne correspond souvent pas au(x) prénom(s) d'usage, validation et correction manuelle avaient été faites ; sur ce coup, il y a eu une erreur. Merci. Bien à toi. --Shonagon 10:28, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

de rien, en ce moment, Mémoire des hommes, c'est presque mon pain quotidien (Archives, commémoration 14-18, toussa…) --Hsarrazin (talk) 00:40, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

French help needed

Hi Shonagon, I generate lists of items about paintings that have an article in a language Wikipedia, but are missing either creator (P170) or collection (P195). The list for the French Wikipedia is at User:Multichill/SOAP frwiki monitor. Could you help by adding the missing claims to the painting items? Only Q20724466 is missing the creator and not sure which of these it is, the rest is missing collection and probably a lot of these are private collection (Q768717). I hope you can help and in case you need some distraction: Plenty more lists of paintings at User:Multichill/Paintings without painter. Multichill (talk) 08:37, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello Multichill. It's a very good idea and an usefull tool. I do not miss things to do but I think can help for the French Wikipedia. On another side I'm regularly triying to complete new or awaken items of artworks lacking of images. Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 11:05, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the help!

Something else. I started to write User:Multichill/Museum collection differences. Is it correct what I say there? Wouldn't it make sense to generate a report for everything that has collection (P195) -> Louvre Museum (Q19675) instead of one of the deparments? Multichill (talk) 19:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello Multichill. Indeed it's a good idea. I thought that one day I had to clarify collection (P195) Louvre Museum (Q19675). It's done and I will checker later for new items. Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 17:56, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Issues with VIAF

Hi Shonagon, I have just found an issue with the item Q3103900. It seems that two different persons have been merged: Gerald Mayr, a contemporary German, and a Mayr, Johann Georg, a Frenchman from 19th Century - and it is mixed up here if this was a source.

I have removed the references to Johann however this problem can be much more common. Your edits were made on 19th Oct, 2015. I guess they would require some verification. :S

Best Regards, Aegis Maelstrom (talk) 10:51, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello Aegis Maelstrom. Indeed, there were two different persons in the same item. They have splitted in Gerald Mayr (Q3103900) and new Johann George Mayr (Q22951829). The IDs have been checked, corrected if needed and completed. Thanks fo the alert! Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 01:07, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

File:Rosalie Emslie00.jpg

Hi Shonagon, thanks for all your work on paintings, I really appreciate it. Looking at this one Rosalie Emslie (Q23028061) I was puzzled because I assumed it was by the mother (also a painter), but this one is the daughter, who died in 1977. Copyrighted, unfortunately, but we can host the data anyway. I will go add an item for the mother now. Jane023 (talk) 11:38, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Jane! I did'nt notice that there could be an issue on this image. What is done about self-portraits of women is really great and I'm very happy to follow in your's footsteps. Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 20:52, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! I am a bit worried about attracting copyvios to Commons, but maybe this can be a teaching aid as well. I like it that the data shows up in the list on Commons. This is a great way to show how women's art of the 20th-century is marginalized because it is not appearing in any of our GLAM data donations and can't be hosted on Commons either. I am so glad you are joining in on this, and once we have a nice long list, maybe we can do the same for "African artists", "Japanese artists", "Peruvian artists" and so on...--Jane023 (talk) 07:35, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

User:Multichill/Image suggestions

Hi Shonagon, thanks for helping out here! I moved the updating of this page to an automated process on Toollabs. It will be updated four times a day. Multichill (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Oh Thanks! Very good news. --Shonagon (talk) 16:02, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Royal Museum of Fine Arts Antwerp (Q1471477) URLs have become active :-)

Hello Shonagon! I heard that you have emailed the Royal Museum of Fine Arts Antwerp (Q1471477) about their non-functioning URLs on Wikidata. Your email has made an impression - the URLs are now activated! Thank you so much for your helpful intervention. Example: Banquet of the Gods (Q21617757). Spinster 💬 19:26, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Hello Spinster. It's a great news! Thanks a lot for the information. Yes, I noticed the museum about the issue with dead links and I asked if a solution was possible. Very happy that they found and fixed.

I often write to museums for questions about URL issues, not found artworks, metadata, image... Another example: the Rijksmuseum was noticed about a painting which had obviously a wrong image ; they changed it https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/collection/SK-A-4625 and we integrated the good one in Commons Bernardus de Bosch I (1709-86). Dichter en kunstbeschermer te Amsterdam, Jan Maurits Quinkhard, Rijksmuseum SK-A-4625 then in Wikidata Portrait of Bernardus de Bosch I, Poet in Panpoeticon Batavum (Q17340437). Impressive reactivity of the museum!

Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 23:39, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Fresco

Hi, you have created fresco (Q25631150), but "fresco" already exists as a technique (fresco painting (Q134194)) and as a artwork produced (fresco (Q22669139)). Is it your entry refered to the raw material ? or should be merge with one of the pre-existents ?. Thanks,--Amadalvarez (talk) 12:11, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello Amadalvarez. Yes the disambiguation is intentionnal. So now we have 3 "fresco" with different nature:

• fresco (Q25631150), the material, subclass of paint (Q174219), generally used for made from material (P186)
• fresco painting (Q134194), the technique, instance of painting technique (Q1231896), generally used for fabrication method (P2079)
• fresco (Q22669139) the artwotk, subclass of painting (Q3305213), generally used for instance of (P31)

This disambiguation is important for clarification in contribution and for reuse. When fresco painting (Q134194) was not a subclass of paint (Q174219) anymore, which was correct with the creation of fresco (Q22669139) but no reported on existing items, all items instances of fresco painting (Q134194) disappeared from the queries results to find paintings. With the distinction we can edit without ambiguity and with more homogeneity, easily fix eventual issues and avoid clean results for queries. Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 14:14, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

The material one had a confusing description, so I changed it. Could you please add the right description in French? Multichill (talk) 14:31, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Perfect !. Thanks. By the way, I'm refreshing all catalan WP infoboxes taking data from WD. You can see this sample without paràmeters from the paintings & sculptures infobox (ca:infotaula d'obra artística). --Amadalvarez (talk) 14:40, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

@Amadalvarez It's really great. Bravo! --Shonagon (talk) 15:09, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Category:1645 disasters (Q8098250)

Hey. It's already a while ago but once you added many Joconde work ID (P347) claims with source Category:1645 disasters (Q8098250). This looks wrong. Most probably you wanted to add Joconde (Q809825) as source. Can you fix it? A list with all errors you finde here.--Pasleim (talk) 11:29, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello Pasleim. Indeed there was numerous bad edits with Category:1645 disasters (Q8098250) and yes it was for Joconde (Q809825) as source. Fortunately the "disaster" was limited; everything is now fixed. Thanks for the alert. Best regards. --Shonagon (talk) 12:00, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Victory vandalism

Hi Shonagon, thanks for fixing that. Looks like this caused the mess. Multichill (talk) 09:16, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi Multichill. Already done. After searches, I didn't find where the "0810747" acces number come from, which is not mention on the museum's website, that is not complete but presents all major artworks. Maybe it's ok but it needs a reference because on the other side, "0810748" acces number is clearly associated with the artwork which is linked with wikipedia articles and corresponds to this page of the museum for Victory Boogie Woogie. Best regards Shonagon (talk) 09:29, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Why talking about vandalism while this edit was made after searches and reflection? I really don't like the use of this term --Shonagon (talk) 09:36, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi Shonagon, I think you misread it. The item was vandalised by 81.53.110.237 and you fixed it. 81.53.110.237 added the incorrect inventory number (0810748) and changed the inception to 1948. Multichill (talk) 09:53, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Whew. Indeed, I misread it. Sorry. And I finally understand where the bad access number came from. Thanks Multichill! Shonagon (talk) 10:06, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Help with National Gallery paintings

Hi Shonagon, some time ago you added a lot of paintings to Wikidata. I'm currently working on adding the inventory numbers so I can add the remaining (2000) paintings without causing too many duplicates. Feel like helping? My list is at User:Multichill/Zandbak and currently still over 250 paintings without an inventory number. Thanks in advance. Multichill (talk) 17:17, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

@Multichill Done. Actually most of those items came from Wikipedia articles. It's a very nice collection. Good upload! Best regards Shonagon (talk) 16:03, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

That's awesome Shonagon! Thank you very much. I fired up the bot right away to import the missing paintings. That will probably take some time

In case you feel like puzzling a bit more this week, at User:Multichill/Kladblok I have the Prado paintings. Probably going to import the remaining of those after the National Gallery. Multichill (talk) 18:09, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Louvre paintings

I noticed your update. Congratulations! That made me wonder: What is the current status of Louvre paintings here on Wikidata. Do we have them all? Are the paintings well described? Do we have images? Multichill (talk) 19:48, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Multichill I began yesterday and am very happy. Despite my job isn't linked to cataloging or Wikimedia activities, I will continue to contribute and, as there is a common goal, I hope helping to more contribution on Louvre's artworks. We already did a lot on paintings, mostly in correspondance with Wikipedia articles and Commons files, but many are still missing on Wikidata. The images of Louvre's artworks are made and distributed by the Réunion des musées nationaux – Grand Palais (Q206456) and a recent project, images d'art, has maintained the principle of reusability for non-commercial use, incompatible with Wikimedia policies. Honestly, as French wikimedians, we have been not very successful, especially last years, in promoting free content on public domain artworks of cultural institutions, despite nice projects like those on Musée des Augustins (Q2711480) or Museum of Fine Arts of Lyon (Q511). But fortunately many have been done by Commonists and now as Wikidatians, we try to follow because there is already stuff to do. Where there is a way, there is a will! Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 22:20, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

About deleted paint

Hi, for the deleted paint, you can ask help in Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings. --ValterVB (talk) 08:15, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

This painting falls well within the scope of the project (painting in private collection by Charles-Amable Lenoir (Q4258652)). In undeleted Dream of the Orient (Q21693165) and added some missing information. Multichill (talk) 09:29, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks Multichill for the undeletion. Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 13:07, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Image suggestions working again

Hi Shonagon, after a database change User:Multichill/Image suggestions stopped working. I managed to fix it and it's back up again with plenty of suggestions. I hope you want to help to add some more images. Multichill (talk) 11:06, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Hello Multichill. Yes, it's a really great tool and I used it a lot some months ago. Sometimes I had a little frustration when I wanted to try matching exhaustively on a specific collection. So, inspired by yours, I developped my own tool : script for getting files with metadata from WikiCommons category and another script to making proposition of matching (ugly code, just on local machine, but surprisingly it worked). If you do soon massive edits with new paintings, it will be a pleasure to make the matches with WikiCommons files. For the moment I will play with your tool :-). Thanks. Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 11:14, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

In case you're interested. I rewrote the code for Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Image suggestions and split it up in different lists. Multichill (talk) 23:07, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

It's really great Multichill. I used it tool a little bit and it's very efficient. Bravo and thanks. --Shonagon (talk) 11:31, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Q622335

Sorry, but I don't get it. Nearly everything is wrong. For more than 3 years there were simply wrong things here. How you came to this? Why you do things you don't know? Why? "Oil paint"? Which oil paint? This is clay on clay! And so on. This is do frustrating... Marcus Cyron (talk) 09:58, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@Marcus Cyron: please take it easy and assume good faith. Everyone makes mistakes. Like you adding a list of inventory number (P217) and forgetting about the mandatory constraint collection (P195). Even better would probably be to create items for the individual objects, move the inventory numbers there, link everything together and source everything to the museum website. But that's a bit more work. Multichill (talk) 10:24, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

This article is about a convolut of objects - ofcouse all numbers depend here. And collection (P195) is added! Marcus Cyron (talk) 11:35, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

I understand it's multiple objects that form a series. We have this in other fields too, take for example Sunflowers (Q157541) or Triptych of the Rest on the Flight into Egypt (Q16038739). As these inventory numbers are linked to single objects and not to the set as a whole, it's usually nicer to split it up.

collection (P195) is a mandatory qualifier for inventory number (P217) (example). Multichill (talk) 12:41, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@Marcus Cyron: "Nearly everything is wrong" The picture? No. The P31 ? Not at his time where the ontology was not so rich as today (cf pottery of ancient Greece (Q738680) for example [1]. Yes, the P186 was a mistake, and the P144 is not appropriate; both came from wrong automatic correspondance with Categories in French Wikipedia, my bad. "Why you do things you don't know?" Don't bully, please, it's a wiki and august 2013, my first edits on Wikidata. At this time there were not a lot of artworks identified as so on Wikidata, and I began to identify thousands of them with basic informations and yes sometimes I can do mistakes. For the argument from authority, it is doubtless preferable not to answer. Best regards. --Shonagon (talk) 10:56, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

The problem is the autamatism. I have to correct in every second data set because of these automatisms. Marcus Cyron (talk) 11:35, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it could be an issue (in that case, my bad, for example) and I do too often corrections. But in the second hand we have a lot of benefice from many automatics or semi-automatic edits and from my part I really enjoy reuse those data. We have always to be aware on the possible mistakes with automatic edits. In October 2013, I pointed this in my post about imports from DBpedia to Wikidata. I had learned. Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 11:50, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

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Thank you! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 20:36, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Use undo please

This doesn't trigger a notification so I'm completely unaware of it :-). Where is this being discussed? I noticed some not so constructive edits on File:Bernardus de Bosch I (1709-86). Dichter en kunstbeschermer te Amsterdam, Jan Maurits Quinkhard, Rijksmuseum SK-A-4625.jpg and File:Bernardus de Bosch I (1709-86). Dichter en kunstbeschermer te Amsterdam Rijksmuseum SK-A-791.jpeg. Multichill (talk) 17:45, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Erf sorry Multichill. I prefer this method, because reverts could be perceived as aggressive. The museum had before a bad image for one of them. It was the same painting, but a different photograph, of another painting very similar but different with another inventory number. After email exchanges and investigation, the image was changed on the website. This distinction is in Wikicommons where the difference of the two is notified, and where there was confusion too. What to have headache... I will check all IDs and links on Wikidata items. Best regards. --Shonagon (talk) 19:45, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

I like happy undo's ;-)

Ok. Let's see if we can complete the puzzle. We have 2 paintings, one with 4 buttons and one with more buttons.

One paintings has inventory number SK-A-4625, other SK-A-791 so both are owned by the Rijksmuseum (A, means owned by the Rijksmuseum),

SK-A-4625 also has SB 5807 in the Amsterdam Museum collection, SK-A-791 doesn't seem to have an inventory number in another collection.

The SB 5807 on the Amsterdam Museum website has 4 buttons, so SK-A-4625 should have 4 buttons and that's the case.

Weirdly enough Commons has an image with more buttons for SK-A-4625. I'm confused now....

@Jane023: I noticed something about an email. Multichill (talk) 20:42, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

@Multichill: Ok. As I understand, after discussion matches of access number and images are ok for WikiCommons and Wikidata (but not yet for museum's website pages), even for externals IDs. Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 06:52, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Het oude stadhuis in Amsterdam

You undid my merge. We have two items:

• The Old Town Hall of Amsterdam (Q12157300) / https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/collectie/SK-C-1409 (on loan from Gemeente Amsterdam, that's the Amsterdam Museum)
• The Old Town Hall of Amsterdam (Q17559947) / http://collectie.amsterdammuseum.nl/amonline/advanced/Details/collect/38809 ( on view in the Rijksmuseum )

I think you tricked yourself into this mistake by adding the wrong image, which is actually Historical Impression of Former City Hall (Q17735498). Can you check and correct? Multichill (talk) 18:01, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes Multichill Thanks for your observation. My bad, the image added was not the good one. The item for this image is Historical Impression of Former City Hall (Q17735498). I was surprised by a bad merge (you made many which are always good) but indeed it was my mistake. For information, I check all new merged visual artworks items, because, if large majority are well today, there are sometimes bad merges (recent example ). It was a serious issue when Merge The Game was a lot used. That's why there is a disclaimer about artworks now. Today the activiy, is quite calm. Sorry for the mistake. Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 19:22, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm really happy with the extra pair of eyes. Much appreciated. No worries about the mistake, I always do a visual check too so if the wrong image is present (check previous topic), I'll probably make a mistake too. I

Some background: I managed to get a dataset from the Rijksmuseum containing current id's combined with old id's and id's in other collections. I wrote a bit of code and produced this huge list of duplicates. A bot added the old inventory numbers and I manually went through all the Amsterdam Museum and SNK works. Still quite a few to do at User:Multichill/Zandbak. Multichill (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

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Vermeer exhibition in the Louvre

Hi Shonagon, I made a mistake and reverted one of your edits to a painting because I thought it was a mistake of mine. I fixed it, but then I noticed it was linking to an art exhibition at the Louvre, and there are now two items for this. I am not sure this is the right way to do this. Usually I just make one item for the exhibition catalog and then the paintings just link to that, but Nicolas Vigneron wanted separate items for the exhibition catalog and the exhibition (which is OK I guess). Now you are using the art exhibition for the catalog code, but I think this should be pointing to the book. Maybe there is a way to point to both? It is sometimes true for traveling exhibitions that some paintings are in the catalog but don't "travel" with the exhibition. The item I was talking about is The Doctor's Visit in a Rich Interior (Q4014797) (I hope I fixed it!) and the exhibition items I am talking about are Vermeer and the Masters of Genre Painting (Q28940890) and Vermeer and the Masters of Genre Painting. Inspiration and Rivalry. (Q28854991). I just want to know how you are modelling this so I know what is going on. Thanks for working on this exhibition btw - it looks really interesting. Jane023 (talk) 07:55, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello Jane023. I'm not sure to understand the issue. Like VIGNERON, imho the correct way should be to have 2 items : one is an event, used in particular with exhibition history (P608), the other is a book, used in particular with catalog code (P528). An art exhibition is first an event, and not all exhibitions have a catalog. I agree with you that catalog code (P528) should be used with the catalog, but that's what was done for this items (for example in : The Doctor's Visit in a Rich Interior (Q4014797): https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q4014797&diff=466429675&oldid=466429671 ) and I have never seen an paticular exhibiton code different from the catalog when there is one; catalog code is indeed the common reference in art history. You can find all artworks of this exhibition ordered by catalog code with this query:

SELECT distinct ?item ?numCatalogue ?itemLabel  ?creaLabel ?date (CONCAT(STR(?hauteur),"×",STR(?largeur)," cm") AS ?dimensions)
(GROUP_CONCAT(distinct ?collLb; separator=" - ") as ?collection) (GROUP_CONCAT(distinct ?ninv; separator=" - ") as ?inv) ?img (SAMPLE(?url) as ?URL)
WHERE 
{ 
  ?item wdt:P608 wd:Q28854991 ;
        wdt:P170 ?crea ;
        wdt:P18 ?img ;
        wdt:P195 ?coll ;
        wdt:P2048 ?hauteur ;
        wdt:P2049 ?largeur ;
        p:P528 [ ps:P528 ?numCatalogue ;
                 pq:P972 wd:Q28940890 ] ;
        p:P571 ?declarationdate .
  OPTIONAL { ?item wdt:P217 ?ninv }
  OPTIONAL { ?item wdt:P973 ?url }
  OPTIONAL { MINUS {?declarationdate pq:P1319 ?pasavant }
             MINUS {?declarationdate pq:P1480 wd:Q5727902 }
             ?declarationdate ps:P571 ?dateunique .
             BIND (year(?dateunique) AS ?date)}
  OPTIONAL { MINUS {?declarationdate pq:P1319 ?pasavant }
             ?declarationdate pq:P1480 wd:Q5727902. 
             ?declarationdate ps:P571 ?dateunique . 
             BIND (CONCAT("c.",STR(year(?dateunique))) AS ?date)}
  OPTIONAL { ?declarationdate pq:P1319 ?pasavant . 
             ?declarationdate pq:P1326 ?pasapres.
             BIND (CONCAT(STR(year(?pasavant)),"-",STR(year(?pasapres))) AS ?date)}
  ?coll rdfs:label ?collLb . filter (lang(?collLb) = "fr") .
  SERVICE wikibase:label {bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "fr"}
} GROUP BY ?item ?itemLabel ?numCatalogue ?creaLabel ?date ?hauteur ?largeur ?img 
ORDER BY xsd:integer(?numCatalogue)

Try it!

By the way, I see with pleasure (in Crotos http://zone47.com/crotos/?d=20170418&p170=205863 ) all the new paintings on Jan Steen, recently added. Great job! Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 23:33, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

OK yes I see now that I was confused. Never mind! Thanks for adding the catalog. I am just as intrigued by Jan Steen as you are. If I had known when I started that I needed to do a few hundred of them I may not have begun this task, but the paintings are so funny and addicting I am sorting getting excited by them when I find one now. Which is probably what happened to the original cataloguer Hofstede de Groot whose (now freely accessible) catalog I am adding to Wikidata. Jane023 (talk) 07:03, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Louvre paintings

Wow! Just wow. Thanks so much for adding those!!!! Jane023 (talk) 08:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

bust (sculpture) in Q30110071

Hi, why Bust of Jan Opletal (Q30110071) hasn't instance of (P31) = bust (Q17489160)? Skim (talk) 07:48, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello Skim. It could be, both approaches are justifiable and I used to edit like that at one time. But today I favor the other approach, instance of (P31) = sculpture (Q860861) with genre (P136) = bust (Q17489160), for purely pragmatic reasons .

By experience, the ontologies on artworks are fragile with sometimes ambiguous terms mixing genre, material or subclasses, with differences of abstract approaches according to the difference of languages, and have often contradictory declarations. It happens frequently in those last cases that requalifications are made, in particular with subclass of (P279) / instance of (P31). It is generally completely logical and justifiable from certain point of view but can have a major influence on what was already produced, without we realize it. One example : many items had instance of (P31) = fresco painting (Q134194), once fresco painting (Q134194) was removed from subclass of (P279)=painting (Q3305213) for coherence and... all items disappear as subclasses of painting (Q3305213), which is a major issue for queries and reuse (the solution was the creation of a specific new item and a big switching contribution).

We have the same issue with bust (Q17489160) and statue (Q179700) : both have instance of (P31) of art genre (Q1792379) and subclass of (P279) of work of art (Q838948), bust is too subclass of (P279) of art genre (Q1792379). Imho the most robust approach shared in many languages is the best horse to move forward. And here it's instance of (P31) = sculpture (Q860861) with genre (P136) = bust (Q17489160); no doubt that the items, as instance of sculpture (Q860861), will stay by inference instances of artwork and will be understood in more languages (labels in 50 languages for sculptures, in 20 languages for busts).

Another point is the practices of edition and the need to produce homogenous data for same things. When I saw that others contributors edit in the way instance of (P31) = sculpture (Q860861) with genre (P136) = bust (Q17489160), I switched too.

On Bust of Jan Opletal (Q30110071) you can restore the precedent version; as said, things could be indeed edited like that, but imho it's not the preferable approach today. Best regards. --Shonagon (talk) 14:17, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for response, i am thinking about it. Skim (talk) 08:19, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

RKDimages Louvre puzzle

Hi Shonagon, as you might know, I'm matching RKDimages. The overview is at Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/RKD to match and I also have some statistics: Collections with RKDimages & Top creators by number of paintings in RKDimages. I was wondering if you're willing to help with Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/RKD to match/Louvre? Multichill (talk) 11:47, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello Multichill. Wow, it's a big challenge but I think that's really too much work for me for the Louvre's side; even with the creator matches, there is a lot to do with manual matches by artwork. Best regards. --Shonagon (talk) 09:46, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

The task might look big or too big, but I just do some every once in a while and slowly the lists are getting smaller. Would be nice not being the only person working on the Louvre. Multichill (talk) 07:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Dépeint

Bonjour Shonagon,

Belle série d'édits par ton bot, je ne savais pas que JocondeLab avait réussi à produire ce genre de données. Il y a un endroit où signaler les erreurs éventuelles ? Dans l'ensemble, ça a l'air de bonne qualité, mais je ne pense pas que cette mise en abîme soit réelle. --Zolo (talk) 12:29, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Bonjour Zolo. Merci pour ton retour. Les données de JocondeLab sont celles de Joconde alignées sur DBpedia. Du coup je me suis dit que cela pouvait être réutilisable (DBpedia -> page Wikipedia -> Wikidata), en passant par une case relecture/validation/suppression. J'ai passé mal de temps sur la liste des termes récupérés mais malheureusement oui, il y a forcément des termes qui ont passé les mailles du filet. Merci pour le signalement, c'est en effet une erreur. Pour les éventuelles nouvelles erreurs, sans doute qu'une bonne méthode pourrait être d'annuler l'edit qui me serait alors signalé. Ensuite de mon côté je gérerais son utilisation existante sur Wikidata et bloquerais sa possible réutilisation future. Je prévois de faire très prochainement un billet sur le sujet et t'en tiendrai informé. Bien à toi --Shonagon (talk) 13:11, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Bonjour Zolo. Comme promis, voici le billet sur le sujet : Indexation iconographique sur Wikidata via JocondeLab. Bien à toi.--Shonagon (talk) 23:57, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Intéressant, merci,

Juste quelques réflexions sur le paragraphe "Réédition documentaire des alignements".

Juste un tout petit point : tu indiques que "nu" est considéré comme un genre artistique sur Wikidata, plutôt que comme une valeur possible de depicts (P180). En fait, P180 utilise assez fréquemment nudity (Q10791). Il me semble qu'un nude (Q40446) dépeint normalement nudity (Q10791), mais que l'inverse est discutable (je vois que Luncheon on the Grass (Q152509) contient "genre : nu", mais je ne suis pas tout à fait sûr que ce soit justifié). --Zolo (talk) 15:56, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Merci Zolo. Tu as tout à fait raison. En effet "nu (genre)" concerne moins le genre qu'un élément dans l'image. On a d'ailleurs la même chose avec "paysage", qui est indiqué non comme genre mais comme un élément dans l'image (que l'on retrouve par exemple beaucoup dans les peintures de portrait de la Renaissance). Du côté je l'avais mis de côté. Pour "nu (genre)" comme tu le suggères, il conviendrait de rectifier l'alignement vers depicts (P180) nudity (Q10791). Je vais trouver un autre exemple de recatégorisation. Bien à toi --Shonagon (talk) 16:32, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Collection

Bonjour Shonagon, je vois que vous avez annulé l'info/property sur les conservations dans les collections du Walters Art Museum (Q210081) et du Louvre (Q19675) pour Léon Bonvin (Q18508495), par curiosité quelle en est la raison?--DDupard (talk) 07:21, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Bonjour DDupard. Cette suppression a été faite pour 2 raisons :

• Il s'agit d'une violation de la contrainte type de valeur pour cette propriété, telle qu'elle est actuellement définie . Cette propriété est utilisée pour qualifier la collection à laquelle appartient un objet. En cherchant les œuvres du Musée d'Orsay par collection (P195), on ne s'attend pas à retrouver les créateurs dans la liste, ce qu'engendraient les déclarations supprimées.

Après, en pratique il arrive que des propriétés soient un peu tordues et cela participe d'une évolution, parfois bénéfique, des structures documentaires sur Wikidata. Néanmoins, dans le cas présent, ce n'est vraiment pas une bonne idée pour cette deuxième raison :

• cette précision est redondante avec les propriétés / valeurs sur les items œuvres et peut atteindre des volumes considérables. Pour retrouver les collections dans lesquelles sont conservées les œuvres d'une personne, on part de la propriété collection (P195) des items objets et non des créateurs. Pour se rendre compte des volumes en jeu, on peut faire une requête sur le nombre (>50) de collections dans lesquelles sont conservées au moins une œuvre d'une personne

SELECT distinct ?crea ?creaLabel (COUNT(distinct ?coll) as ?nbcoll)
WHERE 
{
  ?item wdt:P170 ?crea.
  ?item wdt:P195 ?coll.
  SERVICE wikibase:label { #BabelRainbow
		bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],fr,en,ar,be,bg,bn,ca,cs,da,de,el,es,et,fa,fi,he,hi,hu,hy,id,it,ja,jv,ko,nb,nl,eo,pa,pl,pt,ro,ru,sh,sk,sr,sv,sw,te,th,tr,uk,yue,vec,vi,zh"
	}
} GROUP BY ?crea ?creaLabel
HAVING (?nbcoll>50)
ORDER BY DESC (?nbcoll)

Try it!

Ainsi si on reprenait la logique d'ajout des collections aux personnes, cela reviendrait aujourd'hui à ajouter 182 déclarations collection (P195) sur l'item Vincent van Gogh (Q5582), 173 pour Rembrandt (Q5598)... Et les volumes de déclarations n'iraient qu'en augmentant au fil du temps. De grâce, n'ouvrons pas cette boîte de Pandore et gardons Wikidata facilement consultable. En outre, cela induirait un processus de maintenance lourd, nécessairement à automatiser pour rester pertinent.

De la même façon on ne liste pas les œuvres crées par un personne dans l'item de la personne. En revanche la propriété notable work (P800) permet de lister sur l'item d'une personne certaines de ses œuvres, notables. Il pourrait en être de même avec une éventuelle nouvelle propriété "Collection notable", avec par exemple en utilisation possible le Musée Picasso (Q743206) pour Pablo Picasso (Q5593).

Bien à vous --Shonagon (talk) 08:51, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

OK, Shonagon et merci d'avoir pris le temps de l'explication (utile)--DDupard (talk) 09:32, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Kullervon sotaanlähtö

Hi, just FYI for this [2]. There is two version of the paintings and file:Kullervon sotaanlähtö.jpg is Kullervo Sets off for Battle (Q11873277) and it is not Kullervo Rides to War (Q41086169). --Zache (talk) 05:21, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Hello Zache. My bad, and thanks for your attention. A correct image has been added [3] ; not the best one but it corresponds to the item's painting. Nice to watch an aurora borealis in painting :-). Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 08:19, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Artworks fragments

Dear Shonagon,

Very sorry that I wasn't able to be in Berlin and see you again. But I love the demo you made of Artwork fragments using candles. It's really nice!

However, I tried putting in clock (Q376) -- I wasn't sure if this would show me clocks that had already been located; or whether it would give me images with clocks in them, where the clocks still needed to be found -- I got two error messages:

Warning: copy(/kunden/homepages/42/d110278962/htdocs/zone47/crotos/lab/artworks/items/Q376.json): failed to open stream: Disk quota exceeded in /homepages/42/d110278962/htdocs/zone47/crotos/lab/cropper/p180iiif.php on line 14

Warning: file_get_contents(/kunden/homepages/42/d110278962/htdocs/zone47/crotos/lab/artworks/items/Q376.json): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /homepages/42/d110278962/htdocs/zone47/crotos/lab/cropper/p180iiif.php on line 16

Does this mean there are too many pictures with clocks? Or that Crotos has been so successful that you have maxed out your account? Jheald (talk) 14:13, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello Jheald. Thanks to you for the idea, the impulse, the property, the support on wmflabs. Your action was decisive. I hopped too to see you in Berlin, especially for talking about IIIF. As you revealed it, there is the a big opportunity in this domain. I'm focused on artworks but more globally, this technology could be a major evolution for the web with content federation. We could easily share Wikicommons image or image fragments on Wikimedias projects or elsewhere and in the other direction we could integrate content from other repositories with a standardized protocol.

For your ask, the error message was linked to another issue: the whole project becomes too big for the hostings service that I use. It is fixed for a moment but it could come back in some time.

The other point is that there is almost no data for relative position within image (P2677) for now. I have only created an interface with a tool to produce data and and interface to visualize fragments by artwork or item.

I hope that others will continue to improve in this domain. For the moment, some clock (Q376) (and subclasses): http://zone47.com/crotos/lab/cropper/p180iiif.php?q=Q376

Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Shonagon. It was a clock in the background of an image at the Maritshuis in The Hague, the day after a GLAM-wiki meetup, that first gave me the idea for the property, and how interesting it might be to be able to see the chronological development of clocks, through their appearances in the backgrounds of paintings ordered by date. So it's great to see these!

Is there a way on Crotos to ask for a set of images containing un-located clocks (or any other Q-number), then be able to click a link from the list through to the cropper, and have the cropper use the rectangle drawn to automatically qualify the depicts:clock statement? That would be very neat... Jheald (talk) 17:57, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello Jheald. It's a good idea to simplify the search and link for artworks images to annotate. I will do something on this side. Best regards. --Shonagon (talk) 08:41, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Cours

Salut! Je suis par hasard tombé sur votre page d'utilisateur et j'ai lu que vous donnez un cours sur Wikidata. Est-ce un cours libre? Merci! --Joalpe (talk) 22:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Bonjour Joalpe. Il s'agit d'un cours donné aux étudiants du Master 2 "Gestionnaire de l'information" de l'École des bibliothécaires-documentalistes. Le cours n'est pas ouvert aux auditeurs libres. En revanche les supports de cours sont sur Commons : Wikidata et SparQL. Bien à vous --Shonagon (talk) 09:27, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Mises à jour Crotos

Bonjour Shonagon,

Je me pose quelques questions sur le fonctionnement des mises à jour de contenu de Crotos.

En effet j'attendais depuis un moment déjà l'arrivée de ces entrées. Aussi, en ne les trouvant toujours pas listées dans la mise à jour d'aujourd'hui (datée d'hier), j'ai commencé à m'interroger. J'ai été rassuré en les retrouvant via le lien ci-dessus, mais c'était d'autant pus intriguant. En jouant avec les paramètres d'url, je suis donc tombé sur cette mise à jour secrète (ou en tout cas non annoncée) qui apportait une partie de la solution.

J'ai alors repensé aux mises à jour un peu irrégulières de ces derniers temps. Et bingo, j'ai trouvé au moins une autre mise à jour non annoncée (me permettant de corriger au passage un vandalisme passé totalement inaperçu, et qui aurait sans doute été repéré sinon). D'où ma première question : y a-t-il une raison à cette "double comptabilité", ou s'agit-il simplement d'un raté du process ?

J'avais également constaté des incohérences le 1er décembre entre les décomptes affichés dans Callisto et les résultats affichés par Crotos en cliquant sur les liens (les entrées de la mise à jour fantôme étaient bien prises en compte dans le premier, mais les pages restaient désespérément vides dans le second pour les nouvelles collections). D'où ma seconde question : comment se fait-il que des éléments censés avoir été importés n'étaient toujours pas disponibles dans Crotos tout en étant pris en compte dans Calisto qui doit utiliser la même base de données ?

Merci par avance de satisfaire ma curiosité ;-) -- Nono314 (talk) 22:01, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Bonjour Nono314

Toutes mes excuses pour cette réponse tardive ; j'étais en wikislow.

Les mises à jour de Crotos se font automatiquement. Le petit PC dédié est sous le lit de me filles. Il y a les aléas de la compilation, qui est très longue, de la connexion qui est capricieuse, de l'hébergement qui commence à craquer, et même parfois des services tiers qui peuvent être pas mal sollicités. Bref, parfois la mise à jour déraille et, si je suis informé des nouvelles, je ne vais pas toujours voir ce qui se passe en cas de manque (hier je me suis rendu compte que le PC était éteint depuis vraisemblablement depuis jours).

Néanmoins, il se trouve que, à un moment, j'attendais aussi une mise à jour particulière. Et ne voyant rien finir, j'ai fini, tout comme toi, par triturer l'URL, pour finalement retrouver les tsubas attendus.

Toutes mes excuses pour ces dysfonctionnements. Il s'agit bien de ratés du processus de mise à jour qui n'est pas arrivé à son terme. Même si le processus n'a pas abouti, les nouvelles œuvres avec leur date avaient bien été inscrites dans la table dédiée.

Pour la différence Callisto/Crotos, après avoir regardé, il me semble que cela concorde maintenant, sachant que Callisto ne compte que les œuvres avec images à la différence de Crotos en mode contribution. Peut-être il y-a-t'il eu un problème de mise à jour non arrivée à terme (la mise à jour de Callisto est très gourmande en bande passante et parfois ça coince côté serveur). Surtout je viens de voir qu'il y a un problème avec les images que je vais aller rectifier.

Merci pour tes informations, et pardon pour les problèmes que je vais tâcher de résoudre.

Bien à toi --Shonagon (talk) 20:20, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Et voilà les vignettes sont revenues sur Callisto. Bien à toi. --Shonagon (talk) 20:28, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Merci pour ta réponse. Avec un bel outil comme celui-ci on s'habitue vite, et on finit par oublier à quel point beaucoup des outils qui gravitent autour du wikiverse restent artisanaux (j'imaginais bien l'hébergement ric-rac, mais pas forcément le PC sous le lit :) Merci pour tout, en espérant une prochaine mise à jour. -- Nono314 (talk) 11:03, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Wrong merges

Thanks for fixing these. I always leave a different from (P1889) to prevent it from happening again by accident. Multichill (talk) 12:52, 24 December 2017 (UTC)