Wikidata:Property proposal/Bane NOR Network Statement station ID

Bane NOR Network Statement ID edit

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Transportation

Done: Bane NOR Network Statement ID (P11369) (Talk and documentation)

Description	identifier for Norwegian railway stations and lines in Bane NOR's Network Statement
Represents	railway station (Q55488) and railway line (Q728937)
Data type	External identifier
Domain	item
Allowed values	(lower-case letters a-z, hyphen, underscore, dot, and possibly numbers too)
Example 1	Oslo Central Station (Q1410317) → oslo_s (large central station)
Example 2	Hell Station (Q1781011) → hell (small station)
Example 3	Trondheim Airport Station (Q969807) → vaernes (simple railway stop)
Example 4	Skollenborg Station (Q4577744) → skollenborg (no scheduled service anymore, but still technically a station)
Example 5	Nordland Line (Q1634815) → nordlandsbanen
Example 6	Stavne–Leangen Line (Q177703) → stavne-leangenbanen
Source	https://networkstatement.banenor.no/doku.php?id=stasjoner:stasjoner%20start
Planned use	Add all identifiers to existing items. Will then add missing items at a later time. (Many of the technical stations without scheduled service are not present in WD.)
Number of IDs in source	ca. 450 stations, 27 railway lines
Expected completeness	eventually complete (Q21873974)
Implied notability	Wikidata property for an identifier that suggests notability (Q62589316) (for WD, probably not for most wikis)
Formatter URL	https://networkstatement.banenor.no/doku.php?id=stasjoner:$1
Country	Norway (Q20)
Applicable "stated in"-value	Bane NOR Network Statement (Q115537707)
Single-value constraint	yes
Distinct-values constraint	yes
Wikidata project	WikiProject Railways

Motivation edit

Bane NOR (Q23979144) is the infrastructure owner for the main rail network in Norway. Every year they update their Network Statement, which is a complete network overview. One of the appendices is an overview of all current stations on the network, and that is where this identifier belongs.

From the start page, one can either browse the stations alphabetically, or by railway line. The railway line overviews use the very same URL pattern as the stations, which means we can use this identifier on those too. These are quite useful references for the following:

Lists all existing stations, showing us actual adjacent station (P197) along the line
Shows the distance for use in located on linear feature (P795)
Shows what will be correct instance of (P31) out of railway stop (Q55678) (Hp), railway station (Q55488) (St) and railway station without scheduled passenger exchange (Q115485166) (Stx)

On the station pages themselves, the following can be found (among other):

A table that lists all services available
A track table describing all tracks and platforms
A detailed map of all tracks and platforms

This is in other words quite useful as a reference for the current state of the Norwegian railway network.

Sorry for not providing a regex for allowed values. I guess it probably follow standard rules of URLs. Bergenga (talk) 16:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion edit

Support Clearly useful. Infrastruktur (talk) 16:55, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The name of the identifier is misleading The https://networkstatement.banenor.no/ is directing to a source for infrastructure on Bane NOR (Q23979144) Quote "Network Statement shall provide all current and potential train operators wishing to run services on Bane NOR's infrastructure with a single source of relevant information on a fair and non-discriminatory basis." Unqote. The page contains therefore also in addition to railway stations infrastructure like freight terminals, harbour terminals and railroad tracks. Please consider if this ID shall be for all Bane Nor infrastructures or for stations only. Pmt (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, the name is not misleading, as I am specifically suggesting an ID for the "stasjoner" namespace, not the whole site. I chose this because it is generally more useful for stations as an ID, and because with the exception of the start page, every single ID represent an actual notable object. That is not the case with any other part of the site. Workshops, storage sidings and harbour terminals can be found under the "vedlegg" namespace, while freight terminals are on a different site (only the overview is on the same site).

One option would be to additionally suggest an ID for the "vedlegg" namespace, but I don't feel like we would gain much more with that.

The other option would be to instead sugges a property for the whole site, but then it would have to change a lot from the current proposal. Except for the obvious change of formatter URL and IDs (adding the namespace to the ID itself), we would obviously also have to change to always incomplete (Q21873886) and Wikidata property for an identifier that does not imply notability (Q62589320), since a substantial part of all possible IDs do not represent anything but a section/page on the site. For the same reason I would really rather like to call it a "handle" than an "ID", since it's partly outside my idea of what an ID is.

I'm positive towards changing the proposal, but I want to hear what others think first. Also on how this has been handled in other similar situations. And the most important thing is that we make up our minds before any property has been created. Bergenga (talk) 21:08, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I looked into it a bit, and the website has information split into two systems: 1) normal webpages and 2) pages on docuwiki. the information on the stations and lengths of track are located on the wiki. also located on the wiki is information on workshops, and random bits of information about their infrastructure. information about harbor and goods terminals was located on their normal webpages. it is not practical to support the latter with this property proposal because the URI scheme is different, but if one considers the other wiki pages interesting then the property can be amended to include those as well (basically anything after "id="). I take it from Berganga's reply he didn't consider them interesting, and I concur. Infrastruktur (talk) 21:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bergenga: Just noting that example 5 and example 6 are railway line (Q728937) and not railway station (Q55488). In your proposal you are also saying that this ID is Representing both railway station (Q55488) and railway line (Q728937) and also having the Description identifier for Norwegian railway stations (and lines) in Bane NOR's Network Statement, and you are also also mentioning "ca. 450 stations, 27 railway lines" as nuber of ID. Can you please claryfy if you are proposing an ID for a station or for both a station and a railway line? Pmt (talk) 23:46, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am proposing an ID for what is in the "stasjoner" namespace. Nothing more, nothing less. One could change the name of the property to "Bane NOR Network Statement station and railway line ID", but the way I see it, we would only gain two things from that; a longer property name and a lot more ambiguity. For the railway lines these IDs are really only useful as a list of the associated stations. All the other information found there is related to the stations. (For example the linear references (in km) do not necessarily represent the actual distance, as these are mostly not corrected whenever a railway line is shortened.) To add railway lines to the name of the property would only imply that these would give useful information for the lines, which they don't. However, if you want to change the label of the propery after it's (hopefully) been created, I'll most likely let it be. This does not need to be permanently decided at this point. Also, changing the subject type constraint (Q21503250) is after all only a 2-sec job at any point after a property's creation. Bergenga (talk) 13:08, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now. The name of the ID do not reflect that it is an identificator both for railway stations and railway lines, the ID is unambiguous for what it is ment to authenticate.Pmt (talk) 13:57, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are free to change the name of the property to whatever fits your requirement. I don't own the proposal. Bergenga (talk) 20:01, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per above, also notifying

Notified participants of WikiProject Railways Pmt (talk) 20:32, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bergenga @Infrastruktur @Pmt: Bane NOR Network Statement ID (P11369). RPI2026F1 (talk) 00:49, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]