Wikidata talk:WikiProject LGBT/Archive/2021
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Edit-a-thon "Lesbians* during the Holocaust" on january 27th 2021
Hi with the EL*C, les sans pagEs and Queercode we are organizing an edit-a-thon on Lesbians* during the Holocaust for the 27th of january 2021 (this page will be updated https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Les_sans_pagEs/Lesbians*_during_the_Holocaust). Is anybody interested in participating / helping? Nattes à chat (talk) 10:55, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
P91 for fictional characters
Hi,
So I stumbled on this, this and this, regarding Star-Lord (Q3496918) (or maybe Peter Quill (Q24050065)) being bi. Besides the current unclear situation regarding the items (as the difference is not obvious to me), how do we handle sexual orientation in comics (and movie adaptation) ? We can't expect a interview of the character to say how he identify (even if we can refer to a creator for that sometime), and we may deal with queer baiting, different idea regarding media criticism and authorial intent (The death of the author, etc, etc). We also have a modeling problem, with multiple stories/universes who may or may not be connected (or have different events), and with maybe different timeline (cause "latest know identity" do not mean much when there is time travel, clones and all the weird stuff we can do in stories). And that's not just one Marvel character, since there is unending rumors regarding Spider-Man (Q79037) (cf this), and the question would arise again in the unlikely event it get produced. --Misc (talk) 01:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Misc: The description of sexual orientation (P91) should definitely also have the third condition "3) is fictional and portrayed as such" (as is already included in ethnic group (P172)).
- Some hints/thoughts to some of the other questions:
- Multiple stories: Qualify the statements to the narrative work(s) where this would be true using present in work (P1441) (see Wikidata:WikiProject_Narration#Qualifiers), I'm not sure about differences in narrative universes where there would be too many works to list. Maybe we could just allow takes place in fictional universe (P1434) as a qualifier for these cases.
- Multiple opinions: Use nature of statement (P5102) disputed (Q18912752) and/or statement disputed by (P1310)/statement supported by (P3680).
- Authorial intent: Use statement disputed by (P1310)/statement supported by (P3680) <author> to express authorial intent.
- Queerbaiting: My first thought would be to use sourcing circumstances (P1480) queerbaiting (Q18389913) (using the film/tv show/book and maybe some articles where this is thematized as a reference). But this could be improved. Maybe we should use a newly created item instead of queerbaiting (Q18389913) for that purpose.
- Some qualifiers that may be useful for related questions: To make a difference between canonic and fanonic interpretations: use nature of statement (P5102) fanon (Q3739281).
- I actually came to this page to make you aware that we are applying the Vito Russo test (Q93605402) to items in Wikidata (see also Wikidata:WikiProject_Media_Representation/Queer+LGBTQA+). This could be of interest to this project with regard to representation of lgbt in the media. Here an example query: Vito Russo Test results for films in Wikidata. Maybe you feel that some of the applications are erroneous - just change the statement in obvious cases or bring it up at Items in need of additional opinions . -Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 10:49, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- One addition to my answer 1): It may be reasonable to treat characters from different narrative universes as different characters (as done with Star-Lord (Q3496918)/Peter Quill (Q24050065)), even if the one is based on the other. You find some thoughts about problems related to fictional characters and differing features in different narrative universes/stories here: Characters appearing in multiple works with different characteristics - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 10:58, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- I didn't knew that such a project existed, that's great news given that seems to focus on so many problem I faced in the past (cause queer videogames is also one of my niche interest) --Misc (talk) 07:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- One addition to my answer 1): It may be reasonable to treat characters from different narrative universes as different characters (as done with Star-Lord (Q3496918)/Peter Quill (Q24050065)), even if the one is based on the other. You find some thoughts about problems related to fictional characters and differing features in different narrative universes/stories here: Characters appearing in multiple works with different characteristics - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 10:58, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Current status of Wikidata:WikiProject LGBT/gender
Hi all; based on a conversation I've had off-wiki, I have a few comments/questions/suggestions I'd like to bring up about the current status of the /gender page of this wikiproject.
- First of all, it's not very clear what the current status of the page is. It's unclear if "Future Scheme" is something that's been proposed, or if it's a working draft, or something else entirely.
- On a related note, it's also unclear what the impact of the currently listed Wikidata proposals would be on the "Future Scheme".
- Is should likely be clarified that in the future scheme a value of intersex (Q1097630) and the proposed property for "transgender status" would be under the protections that property that may violate privacy (Q44601380) provides.
- This sort of change is really important for some people. It might be useful to not let it sit around forever ;).
I think that's about it. Also—thank you to anyone that's worked on that page so far, because it's very helpful, and very well done. I'm just hoping (as are other people, I'm sure) that some of the features of the new scheme can be pushed along, as it looks much better than the current version. Perryprog (talk) 18:48, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Appropriate to note previous name
Can someone clarify the community preference here for noting a previous name for someone, if that is even appropriate? The person published numerous articles under their previous name, but I don't know if that should be noted in the alias field. Should it be in their "given name" property? As I disambiguate, I don't want to add to confusion. Thank you. Trilotat (talk) 21:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Trilotat did you find an answer to this? Zblace (talk) 08:37, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Zblace: I did not. Trilotat (talk) 12:10, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Trilotat consider checking out and asking on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_LGBT%2B --Zblace (talk) 16:47, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Zblace: I did not. Trilotat (talk) 12:10, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Sexual orientation for fictionnal character
Hi, I have a question, how should I label a lesbian fictionnal character? I think there was a discussion somewhere but I can't find it anymore. I have seen it labelled as "homosexual", which to me seems like making the term "lesbian" invisible, just as labelleing a bisexual woman "lesbian" is. But maybe there is some reasonning I missed or dont remember. Nattes à chat (talk) 08:03, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- bonjour/hello
- Pour moi, je met lesbienne ou bi pour des personne de fiction
- for me, i write lesbien o bi for fictionnal character
- Silanoc (talk) 14:40, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- Merci @Silanoc:. Thanks. Nattes à chat (talk) 17:56, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Pride model
Bonjour, travaillant en ce moment sur les marches des fiertés sur mon site, j'en profite pour ajouter dans la rubrique modèle des éléments. Je vous laisse commenter si cela vous convient. J'ai ajouté aussi une ou plusieurs requête pour "surveiller" et un tableau avec intergraality pour avoir une vu d'ensemble. A bientôt
with google translate
Hello, currently working on the pride marches on my site, I take this opportunity to add elements in the model section. I'll let you comment if that's okay with you. I also added one or more request to "monitor" and a table with intergraality to have an overview. See you soon
https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Wikidata:WikiProject_LGBT/Models/pride
Silanoc (talk) 14:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- On a une page ici pour le mois des fiertés ici https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Pride/2021. Et une version en français ici https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projet:LGBT/Mois_des_fiert%C3%A9s_2021#Articles_cr%C3%A9%C3%A9s_en_2021. Sens toi libre de rajouter ton site et tes requêtes pour surveiller si tu veux. Nattes à chat (talk) 18:01, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Is the identifier down just for me? --Trade (talk) 11:20, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Expand use of metaproperties?
How do folks feel about creating new items (besides Wikidata property related to LGBT (Q63870987)) for use in metaproperties to quickly identify properties relevant to this project and/or the topics it is concerned with? One might think of new items like “Wikidata property related to gender”, “Wikidata property related to transgender status”, etc. These could then be applied as new properties spring up, cf. recently gender educated (P7419), to aid in keeping our lists up to date, for example via SPARQL queries. They would also offer a level of indirection that could be useful in certain cases should a new sex-and-gender and/or related model ever be implemented.
Notified participants of WikiProject LGBT ―BlaueBlüte (talk) 04:16, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- +1Nattes à chat (talk) 07:45, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- +1 Amir (talk) 21:55, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- There is no harm in doing so and it seems like a good idea. Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- i agree with that. - Gerarus (talk) 19:03, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- I started with a small taxonomy to describe properties related to gender:
- See also the example SPARQL query on how to use the taxonomy for listing relevant properties.
- Comments and/or editing/translation of labels/descriptions and/or expansion of the taxonomy and/or its application to existing properties welcome. (Incidentally, do we have an item for this WikiProject so that we could mark the items of the taxonomy as maintained (Property:P6104) by the Wikiproject?)
Notified participants of WikiProject LGBT - ―BlaueBlüte (talk) 03:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Absence of data = data
There are some personal traits which some people may request or choose to not share. I do not know if there is a name for this, but one concept which describes this is
For example, some people request to not have their gender or sexual orientation in their Wikidata item, even if elsewhere this information seems public.
The result of not having data in Wikidata is complicated. One effect is that not having data in Wikidata can be even more conspicuous. A name which describes part of this is
For example, suppose there is a Wikidata item for a biography, and a person requests to not have their gender on that item. In that case, they may wish that people will not consider their gender, but in practice, having a blank value for gender puts that person in the category "people without a gender" which itself is a label, and which may communicate information such as nonconformity.
There are lots of implications for this. If anyone has a vocabulary to discuss this concept then please share. Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:32, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Perhaps we could ask an oversighter user about it? Seems a bit like their domain. --Trade (talk) 23:31, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Super interesting User:Bluerasberry. I think this could be both more general discussion on VOIDdata (beyond LGBT+) and more specific (case studies with recommendations)...either way it is worth a separate page and maybe a focused live discussion at some point (Wikimania or QueeringWikipedia) - what do you think? (I will note it at Queer.WikiSpore.org as tentative) --Zblace (talk) 08:30, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Bluerasberry, Zblace: Regarding vocabulary, see perhaps: Dembroff, Wodak: “He/She/They/Ze” in Ergo (2018). ―BlaueBlüte (talk) 03:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Name and focus of WikiProject LGBT
Here is the item for this WikiProject.
In Wikimedia community culture, WikiProjects are spaces for people to collaborate around a common goal. In the case of concepts like "history" the WikiProject contributors develop the subject content. In the case of LGBT+, people are developing the content, but also some contributors are LGBT and this is a community space, and other issues come up here like addressing misconduct which offenders do to LGBT+ people. Because of this, WikiProject LGBT is different from things like history, trains, and hurricanes.
@BlaueBlüte: suggested using maintained by WikiProject (P6104) to tag some key Wikidata items where this WikiProject has expertise to oversee. In many languages of Wikipedia and the broader media environment, many issues arise about using pronouns and reporting the gender of people. In my opinion, regular editors of WikiProject LGBT have superior expertise in navigating this practice. As a community we have experienced this many times as we have observed mainstream media first do reporting differently than Wikipedia, but then finally adopt the practices of Wikipedia following our very long, highly participatory discussions on how to write biographies of public figures with minority gender presentation. I feel like if we used some select tags on some items then the community of this WikiProject would benefit from being aware of discussions if and when they happen. We should use the right tags for clarity, because it is easier to plan for it to be correct than to change tags in the future.
A problem with this is that in Wikimedia community culture, WikiProjects typically span all projects and languages. For things like history, this is a concept which translates well. For LGBT, in some wiki communities the WikiProject LGBT is for "LGBT studies" or "sexual diversity", and may not be explicitly for LGBT people. One of the causes for this is that in some places, there have been taboos on identifying as LGBT+, and consequently the WikiProject claims to be about LGBT+ issues and not for LGBT+ people.
Here is the question: if we start applying this property to items tagging the WikiProject, then do we just have one WikiProject which is by, for, and about LGBT+ people and issues, or should we have two WikiProject concepts, where one is only about LGBT+ studies, and the other is an LGBT+ community space? I am in favor of keeping just one Wikidata item for all WikiProject LGBT variants, because the offline norm in society is that LGBT+ community centers are for people, culture, studies, advocacy for rights, and safety. Thoughts from others? Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:34, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Question How would the LGBT+ User Group fit into this? Doesn’t the User Group already function as that community space? ―BlaueBlüte (talk) 22:26, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
WD:LGBT TaskForce logo? Monochrome?
hey folx, I would love to make T-shirst with WD:LGBT TaskForce logo...
I also wanted to maybe do a monochrome logo that is more queer and maybe just pink triangle for QueeringWikidata work :-p
What do you think? Any opinions? Visual ideas? References to check?
Zblace (talk) 06:13, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
- It has allready been done for wikidata I remember getting one. Mayber @Ash Crow: knows? Nattes à chat (talk) 20:08, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
- Well, the logo of the LGBT taskforce is not monochrome, but yes we printed some t-shirts using this vector version of the logo some years ago. I don't have any idea for a monochrome variant... Maybe combine the pink triangle with the WD logo stripes? -Ash Crow (talk) 08:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
.svg){kind=link}
Gender bender and sex or gender (P21)
Gender bending in fiction is hardly a rarity so we might wanna figure out how to deal with the issue
Notified participants of WikiProject LGBT--Trade (talk) 23:08, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Trade: Gender in humans is hardly a rarity and we already are having enough trouble with that, but okay, let's explore fiction. Are you able to suggest some characters or situations that you want modeled? Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- Currently just Karnatia. And this one episode of Johnny Bravo (well, he turns back at the end of the episode so i'm tempted to just use the alter ego (Q201662) model. --Trade (talk) 23:45, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Trade: Here is another - Ranma Saotome (Q699792) is boy in hot water and girl in cold water. Listed on Wikidata as sex = male and female. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- How would you feel about a genderender male/female item to be used as a dedicated value? That way we won't have to fondle around with qualifiers in order for the property to make sense. --Trade (talk) 23:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
From WikidataCon 2021
The conference just ended. Presentations were recorded and the team said they would be published after some weeks.
This is the only presentation I see in the agenda which focused on an LGBT+ topic specifically.
- Non-binary gender identities in Wikidata https://pretalx.com/wdcon21/talk/7TRCWD/
I did a panel with other
- Wikidata in the Classroom: Updates from North America https://pretalx.com/wdcon21/talk/HJJCNK/
in which I briefly mentioned tagging LGBT+ scientists as part of demographic tagging for university researchers. I expect that in other presentations there were similar mentions of the demographic tagging issue.
This is what I have! Whenever anyone hears of LGBT+ talks in Wikidata remember to share here so that we track progress over time. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:31, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Information without sources in Andrea Furet's article
Hi,
There's was issue about mentionning the deadname/birth name of Andréa Furet because no sources mention it (like "Andréa's Furet birthname is ..."/ "Andréa Furet, previously ..." "Andréa Furet (deadname is...)" )s, after learning to do it (recently), I just deleted the claim. If you want to check it, give advice, help to follow the 5Pillars and sources, you're welcome. Thx Scriptance (talk) 19:08, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Scriptance is responsible of at least one big mistake: by reverting the birth name, "Andréa Furet" is considered as her birth name, which is clearly wrong, whatever one's opinion about deadnames is.
- As for the sources, there seems to be no source mentioning clearly the link, but Andréa Furet has been credited with her former male name in her previous work, and some few pages even mention both names for the same work (here for instance - actually, depending on the sources, this film mentions either her present name, for instance here, or the former name for which she was credited, for instance here). It's hard to deny this fact, unless we consider it's two different persons (but it's clearly wrong in that case too). Real transphobes would mock trans people for instance by saying they could be schizophrenic. It would be ironic to pretend that a person is two different persons just because assuming this past is supposed to be transphobe! --TwoWings (talk) 08:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- As ya said yourself, the sources don't link the deadname with her name. Plus the actress asked for its suppression, AND 1 of the primal source is now gone (allociné, error 410). There's evidences that my lack of skills in communication is due to the lack of yours in following basic principles as don't mention an information when the sources don't mention it (if ya can't understand this principles, don't try to understand me). I suppress the injuring and unsourced information and let ya add relaible sources wich clearly mention the 2 (I won't do it)Scriptance (talk) 10:33, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Scriptance can you link to the place where the actress asked for the deletion of her deadname ? Nattes à chat (talk) 13:49, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Nattes à chat https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Discussion_Wikip%C3%A9dia:Contact&diff=189020570&oldid=188164349 (entre autres,https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A9cial:Contributions/Andreaxx11062002) (she still had to prove her identity to wmf)Scriptance (talk) 13:55, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Scriptance can you link to the place where the actress asked for the deletion of her deadname ? Nattes à chat (talk) 13:49, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- As ya said yourself, the sources don't link the deadname with her name. Plus the actress asked for its suppression, AND 1 of the primal source is now gone (allociné, error 410). There's evidences that my lack of skills in communication is due to the lack of yours in following basic principles as don't mention an information when the sources don't mention it (if ya can't understand this principles, don't try to understand me). I suppress the injuring and unsourced information and let ya add relaible sources wich clearly mention the 2 (I won't do it)Scriptance (talk) 10:33, 28 December 2021 (UTC)