Wikidata:Requests for deletions/Archive/2018/05/18

This page is an archive. Please do not modify it. Use the current page, even to continue an old discussion.

Q15937860

La Seyne-sur-Mer (Q15937860): commune in Var, France: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Same thing with Q208866 and a duplicate Cwek (talk) 02:22, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Done Redirect created by Mahir256, you can do it yourself next time. --DeltaBot (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53682474

Q53682474: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Apparent test edit, no links or sitelinks. -- irn (talk) 02:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53679754

Q53679754: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Empty item, no links or sitelinks. -- irn (talk) 02:41, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53679483

Q53679483: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Apparent test edit, no links or sitelinks. -- irn (talk) 02:45, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53679431

Q53679431: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Empty item, no links or sitelinks. -- irn (talk) 02:46, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53700539

Q53700539: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Cross wiki vandalism Wargo (talk) 06:25, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53460090

Q53460090: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Promotional item Kostas20142 (talk) 13:48, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53498058

Q53498058: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Autobio spam --Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:24, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

On hold This item is linked from 3 others. --DeltaBot (talk) 00:30, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53565124

Q53565124: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Autobio spam (see #Q53498058) --Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:27, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q51870669

Q51870669: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

No sitelinks, Commons logo is deleted. Claim for notability: world-famous American youtuber. Taivo (talk) 16:34, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

On hold This item is linked from 1 other. --DeltaBot (talk) 16:40, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Illuminati? This can be either non-notable or hoax. Taivo (talk) 18:57, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q27974951

Q27974951: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Hiwiki page deleted. Godric ki Kothri^Talk 06:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q12454609

Q12454609: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Hiwiki page deleted. Godric ki Kothri^Talk 06:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Mahir256 (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 06:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q25875308

Template:Ruw (Q25875308): Wikimedia template: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Its it.wikipedia element has been linked to Q11164850 --Blackcat (talk) 17:08, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Done Redirect created by Mahir256, you can do it yourself next time. --DeltaBot (talk) 06:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q42193329

Natural and Political Observations Made Upon the Bills of Mortality (Q42193329): book written by John Graunt, first published 1661/2: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Duplicate of Q53635923 --Dick Bos (talk) 19:39, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Done Merged into Q42193329 Mahir256 (talk) 06:56, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Artist of Black Lunch Table

After discussion with User:Sjoerddebruin in user page discussion of User:GerardM after some edit of User:Heathart, now I have some doubt about notability of item that are in Wikidata only because they are artists of "Black Lunch Table". I prefere ask to see if community think that partecipation to Black Lunch Table is enough for notability. The following query is a first group of items without sitelink, backlink reference and the only property are: instance of (P31)=human (Q5), sex or gender (P21) and catalog (P972)=Black Lunch Table (Q28781198). Changing a bit the query we can found a lot of other items in the same condition.

So the question is: Are these items notable because they are in "Black Lunch Table" or "Black Lunch Table" isn't a sufficient condition to make notable these item and item like these (see the query result) must be deleted?

SELECT DISTINCT ?item ?itemLabel
WHERE{
  ?item wikibase:sitelinks 0 .
  ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5 .
  ?item wdt:P972 wd:Q28781198 .
  ?item wdt:P21 ?sex .

  ?item wikibase:statements ?statementCount.
  FILTER(?statementCount = 3).

  OPTIONAL{
    ?backlink ?p1 ?item .
  }
  FILTER(!bound(?backlink))  
  
  OPTIONAL{
    ?item ?p2 [prov:wasDerivedFrom ?ref] .
    ?ref ?pr [] .
    FILTER (?pr != pr:P143) #no source
  }  
  FILTER(!bound(?ref))
  
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
}

Try it!

--ValterVB (talk) 20:42, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

With a notable set of editathons under their belt, the Black Lunch Table has proven itself as a credible project. They use Wikidata as a tool to indicate people who to write about on and off editathons. They do work on adding information to the items involved outside of the actual Wikipedia article writing (multiple languages are involved).

This attack on the Black Lunch Table items is reprehensible. The fact that it is packaged in a query is only a means to show that there are items but it provides no arguments that they are not notable. The only issue is the use of Wikidata. Can Wikidata be used for the organisation of editathons? Yes. Are the people behind the Black Lunch Table doing their thing using Wikidata? Yes. Is there any reason for this nonsense? No. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 03:43, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Maybe you misunderstood my action. Until yesterday, after the previous discussions, I considered Black Lunch Table sufficient to be notable. Yesterday I found an item where Heathart deleted " Black Lunch Table" from an item, so I ask to you (I thought you knew the argument), if it was a correct edit or I was necessary a restore. After a bit Sjoerddebruin write « The "catalog" was subject of discussion on RfD and the project chat. Not sure what the consensus was. » So I had the doubt that not all think that this property is a sufficient criterion for notable. If all think that is notable, for me don't change nothing, I already exclude this kind of item, but if someone delete "Black Lunch Table" maybe it is not clear to everyone. --ValterVB (talk) 09:35, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

It looks like the catalog property is being used incorrectly. As these statements have to go, one needs to figure out if these people are otherwise notable. Given that they have been created some time ago, nothing has been added and the argument in support is mainly one that questions if notability is applicable, I don't see how we could keep them.
--- Jura 09:40, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Again Delete, I don't think it is healthy that some in-crowd project decides notability. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 16:31, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Keep We don't benefit from antagonising communities such as Black Lunch Table. Being welcoming of people who are interested in doing edits in Wikidata is more benefitial than being exclusive. I don't want to repeat Wikipedia's shrinkage of editors due to exclusivity in Wikidata.

One of the primary reasons why we have notability standards is to prevent to have a lot of items that aren't looked after by human editors because no human editors are interested in their quality. I don't think that's a problem with the Black Lunch Table. There's a good chance that the items on the list have even more human attention than the average Wikidata item that some bot created.

Additionally the Black Lunch Table does deal with people for whom serious public sources can be found, so most of them are notable according to our standards irrespectible of whether they are in the list of the Black Lunch Table. ChristianKl (✉) 15:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

I see two problem in this case, 1) they are item used only for keep a "working list", in this state don't add nothing of useful to Wikidata only P31 and P21 2) participation to BLT is not demonstrable, don't exist reference for people connected to "Black Lunch Table"; so any artist want stay in Wikidata simply add P972=Q28781198 and we can't delete him because is part of "Black Lunch Table" (don't importamnt that is true, none can check if is a real statement) --ValterVB (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that is kind of the problem I tried to address: only insiders can tell, and this makes the entire setup vulnerable. If some troll came and nominated all the items here instead of starting a discussion such as this one, it would be difficult to justify “keep” decisions—unless the BLT project quickly got references installed. It would really be preferable, even in their own sense, if they did so of their own accord. —MisterSynergy (talk) 18:03, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Two comments:

I’d strongly prefer if we had some kind of external reference(s) within the items which do not have any sitelink. This way we allow every Wikidata editor to work on them based on the references sources, not just some insiders. We do already have at least 20k “John Doe” items with no sitelinks, no backlinks, no identifiers, and no references where nobody knows whom they are about and which problems they have. As a busy deletion admin I see that this backlog only becomes larger, unfortunately, which is dangerous in many regards. So, @GerardM (or any other interested user), can you please arrange that (one of) the future BLT editathlons focuses on the addition of references to the Wikidata items in question to get this solved? If some user nominated 100 items of your collection on this page, neither the admin nor the nominating user would be able to discover references (which isn’t their duty anyway), and the items would have to be deleted as “not fulfilling WD:N”.
BLT uses Wikidata as a worklist and might be one of the first projects to do so. I am in general happy with this idea and even like it to some extent, but the way how it is done is alarming. I fear that others might follow and this gets out of control: “Here are 1M items about $SOMETHING and we need this to work on a project, please accept this …” Since such “worklist items” appear in queries as well, side effects can be tremendous and quality control practically impossible.

—MisterSynergy (talk) 16:49, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

to have a proper conversation, let us not conflate two issues. This discussion is about notability of BLT people only. I have added many people on this list when it was set up. I find that it is actively maintained by @Heathart, Heather Hart: the project lead. I have noticed the addition of all kinds of information to items I initiated on behalf of the BLT project. The arguments that are posed are about fear. You fear that is might add a few items gone rogue. You forget that on en.wp there are listeria list maintaining one overall list and lists for specific editathons. So you have it backwards; because they are in specific queries for the project the effects are as expected and quality control is in place. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 17:59, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
- Can you explain which external source you get the information from? Why don't you add it to Wikidata? Why do we still have 345 items with hardly any statements, reference or sitelink 6 months after creation?
  --- Jura 19:15, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
- GerardM, I personally have no doubt about the notability of the items in this set, particularly if you claim that they are okay. But as an admin I would never keep an RfD-nominated item of this set “because GerardM claims it is notable”, when I cannot verify this by myself. It has to have some kind of identifying references (or users who promptly supply them), or otherwise it needs to be treated equally as all other items, i.e. deleted. For good reasons we do not rely on claims by individual editors or WikiProjects here at Wikimedia when it comes to notability evaluation; we rely on external sources instead. I do not see why the Wikidata community should permit an exception here. —MisterSynergy (talk) 19:27, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

When it comes to notability the real problem is that a "name + human + gender" is not enough to uniquely identify a person. I don't think that more information has to be provided immediately but if there will be no information provided that allows us to uniquely identify the people, I'm okay with deleting those on the list who are only "name + human + gender" with no sources or descritions. ChristianKl (✉) 23:58, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

It is not me who says so. It is a Wikipedia project leader who says so. Who manages the information using Listeria. There is no problem here; you have an external party and it is not me. You know about the information added, the new articles. The rest is accepting that this is a valid way of managing a Wiki project. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 13:17, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with BLT manage information with Listeria but if the information is just a list of names without any information about the people on the list that allows a reader of the list to know which of the people who have that name that's alive or dead is meant, I don't think Wikidata is the right tool for the job. ChristianKl (✉) 16:23, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

As there seem to be no actual references available, this doesn't seem suitable for Wikidata. Commons might accept raw lists.
--- Jura 19:24, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

When you check the data of this list, you will find that it is actively maintained. That the data is enriched. Articles are written all the time and particularly at editathons. On the one hand it is said that these people are probably notable and, this is supported by the success of this project and at the other hand you insist on "not in my backyard" because it does not fit preconceived ideas.

There are always "good reasons" why you can beat a dog. In the case of the Black Lunch Table it is about a group that received too little attention for the relevance they bring and all you can say is "I can not find the references". The point is that it is not about you but you can observe the growth of this project. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 22:49, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

For an Wikidata item to be notable it has to point to a clearly identifiable entity. If there exist two "Chandra Kiran" in the world an item that only contains the name but no information that distinguishes the two Chandra Kirans that exist isn't notable according to our standards even if on an editathon the people who google the name are going to mostly find information about a single person. ChristianKl (✉) 10:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

ChristianKl, both sentences are nonsense. 1) What is "clearly identifiable entity" without a definition? 2) If information is added to distinguish the two "Chandra Kiran", the information might still not be sufficient to distinguish it from a third. And if one is in BLT then that alone might be enough to distinguish it from all others. 78.55.177.69 11:21, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Given the growth of Wikidata nearly empty items become more and more of a problem: People loose time checking and still have to create duplicates as one can be sure that an item in an imaginary catalogue by GerardM is the same as the one they are about to create.
--- Jura 06:37, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I tell you that you apply double standards. First, there is no proof that show why "because of the growth" these few items become extra problematic. You wilfully ignore that these items are actually used and protect the integrity of a living project and that on its own is a reason for notability. You ignore that these items do grow additional statements and articles so there is no issue proving that these are actually used. The notion that this is an imaginary catologue of mine is insulting and not correct a all. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 07:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Of course, the standard for you isn't the same as I already had to clean up your edits before.
Here, I asked you twice for references for your statements and nothing was provided, so my conclusion is that none are available.
--- Jura 19:01, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

So you persist in making it personal. You persist in not looking at what is observable. I did this to help others out. All your arguments are about is you. How you cleaned up after me.. Possible but statistically irrelevant. I indicated several times where I got my data from and that answer does not satisfy you but that does not mean that it was not given. @Heathhart: is the project leader for the Black Lunch Table. She can vouch for the use of the data, she can inform you that as a result of the use of Wikidata, the quality of the project data at Wikipedia improved. She can inform you that it is now from within the project that Wikidata is maintained. I am not really involved; the most that I do is provide technical support when asked.

It is your attitude that everything has to fit in your perspective, the way that you make a controversy personal that is making Wikidata increasingly hostile. This is detrimental for our project. When people like myself find Wikidata hostile, ask yourself how newbies appreciate these issues. I know that this is to be expected in a growing community but in my opinion you have lost the overall perspective and the result will be a Wikidata that is mostly a stamp collection. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 07:39, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

PS this is the current list of entries of the BLT.

It's just that you should have understood by now that references need to be findable and should be inserted in items otherwise items will be deleted. You can try to spin this in a discussion about yourself as a non-newbie.
--- Jura 10:37, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi there, I have only just now been made aware of the questions and this RfD. I have been assisting Heather Hart in implementing this catalog property, with the kind assistance of Gerard. I would like to clarify a few things.
- Notability: The Black Lunch Table project is curating its task list of Visual artists from the African diaspora. The task list is adjusted and customized for specific events (like museum exhibitions), gender, geographic location. Notability is the first concern, so if Heather removed the catalog tag, she knows within the scope of the project whether the item/person should be included in the initiative. She is coming from within the community, and does outreach at various educational centers and art colonies and art organizations to get the added institutional guidance on notability.
- Listeria task list: The Black Lunch Table uses the catalog tag as a method of integrating Wikidata into its mostly English Wikipedia outreach initiative to improve the coverage of diverse populations on the encyclopedia. By using the catalog tag, it is possible to collocate the items into an integrated task list that is curated on the very active number of events that are currently being held in North America, but is being potentially expanded to Europe and Africa in the next year or so. See Black Lunch Table event archive. The value of this integration between Wikidata and Wikipedia is key -- and the goal of each Listeria table is to make sure at minimum all columns are populated, though the overarching goal is to have the subjects of the task lists have as complete Wikidata items as possible, which means adding Authority control identifiers from VIAF, filling in available bibliographic information as a way to create a skeleton of a new Wikipedia stub entry, etcetera. So this is a highly organized, highly curated, approach to content curation both via metadata on Wikidata as well as a framework for improving and/or creating new Wikipedia entries.
- Insider issue: The Black Lunch Table is reaching into the communities of the Visual artists of the African diaspora. It is not an insider issue. I am not a member of that community. I suspect that most Wikidatans are also not a member of that community. But what we are is supporting of highly curated metadata, which is what the Black Lunch Table is working towards as its goal. So I take my cue from Heather Hart and support accordingly, as much or as little. But this is not an insider-outside issue. It is an attempt to address inherent bias within the projects, from within the community that can actually engage and solve the bias and under-representation.
- External sources: Much of the problem of having one external source of reference for this catalog is actually one of the main goals of the Black Lunch Table project. Much of what is known is not written down, is not covered in mainstream news, scholarly and art resources. Part of the project is holding Black Lunch Table events where oral histories of artists are the framework of the discussion. That is one leg of the project. Another leg of the project is Wikipedia, and addressing representation on Wikipedia, etc. But the actual problem is the fact that the dearth of external sources, even one master one, is what the project is consistently addressing.
- I am happy to answer any other questions or concerns, but I hope that there is an understanding that this catalog property is working to service a very well-intentioned and (in my opinion) responsibly and important project that has been the first Wikipedia initiative to effectively harness and integrate Wikidata in its project. I hope that this can be embraced as the impact is very positive on all levels, from Wikidata as well as from Wikipedia. Best, Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 19:49, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

I think that your use of Wikidata is out of scope. Probably you can add a property relative to BLT in notable item (but I think that p972 isn't the more correct property), but not in item that aren't notable. The other big problem is that none can check if is correct that this people are involved in BLT. Someone can add this property/value in a item also if it isn't a real participant and none can delete it because is part of BLT. If you want add this type of item you must add more that only name and sex. --ValterVB (talk) 20:57, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

To provide you feedback, with all due respect, I don't think you are listening to what is being said here. This project is completely within scope. It couldn't be more within scope. And again it seems like you are not listening regarding notability. This is not about you checking notability. That is happening from within the community as part of the project's mission. However most of the Wikidata items have quite a bit of information filled in -- the vast majority way more the 4 items -- and when they have pages created, they have established notability. This project is working to establish notability of notable visual artists, so the notability is not going to be chicken-egg. It is reverse. This is totally acceptable and actually it's a great, curated method to onboard people who pass En Wiki notability. If you don't understand these somewhat basic concepts, as they interrelate between Wikidata, Wikipedia, and outreach partners, I'm not sure how much more explaining (which you don't seem to read) or understanding there can be. Please note that the Listeria tables only have 4 columns because that was the constraint of the event, but the Wikidata items typically are quite rich and full. Those that aren't are being addressed by Heather Hart and her studio assistant, who are filling in the information. Lastly, this project has been using catalog for some time now, and it has been okay within the Wikidata community. I'm not sure why this is so objectionable. This model is also being used for other initiatives. So it would be helpful if you could support this versus be obstructive, and hurt these outreach projects, which are ONLY adding content to Wikidata and Wikipedia -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 21:44, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

This page is called "Wikidata:Requests for deletions", if items aren't notable we delete them. Now can you demonstrate who is Katie Mallory (Q28858319) that have partecipate to BLT? Which of these or these? If instead you want to keep this data also witout demonstrable notable, I repeat my self: Wikidata isn't the right tool. --ValterVB (talk) 09:13, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Apologies for my delay. I run the Wikipedia project Black Lunch Table. Like GerardM said (thank you) we use wikidata as a tool to query our task list for editathons. We are working slowly but as hard (we have just over 100 articles on our task list) as we can on completing more information for the entries who have been added to wikidata as part of our catalog- I understand as it is now there are many insufficient entries, we hope to complete fleshing out the sub-par ones asap. As for Chandra Kirans, I removed her from our catalog because she is actually outside the scope of our tasks, she does not self-identify as being from the African or Black Diaspora, so although this person is a notable artist, she is not one of our project's targets right now. She was added by mistake. All of the artists on our catalog are notable as far as we have researched, but I understand in order to show that here, we need to complete their entry by adding more information. From now on, when we enter a new record for our purposes, we will also enter their demographic information,etc. I hope that resolves the issue for you all. Our project can be found here and here for more context. Thanks! --Heathart (talk) 00:49, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

There have been a minority of items initially made without enough statements (ValterVB's query of the 3-statement ones is ~10% of the total), but this is a valuable, ongoing project made by people with an art expertise and a consideration of notability, and they are actively taking steps both to include more statements with new items and to expand existing ones.--Pharos (talk) 02:37, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Comment Wikidata was used successfully a basis for other editing projects and other Wikidata participants (including myself) supported these. I think they resulted in a increase of coverage of the topics in various languages and Wikidata itself. The main difference between these and the current project seems to be that they didn't attempt to support research on previously undocumented topics. You probably noticed that Wikipedia doesn't allow stubs to be created on these topics even in languages where they have a fairly low threshold. As Wikidata is a secondary database, it doesn't host original content.
--- Jura 10:37, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 1

What is a "secondary database", why does it apply to Wikidata and does this actually describe its content? Please explain why this must be so, that this describes all its items and that this is indeed an approach that is to the best interest of Wikidata. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 11:11, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

At least now we know what point we disagree on. I don't think discussing that is needed to evaluate the deletion of original content.
--- Jura 11:06, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding the goal of the WikiProject. It is not to research original content on Wikidata, but to create and improve Wikipedia articles using reliable sources (news and academic publications) - see w:Wikipedia:Meetup/Black Lunch Table/Outcomes, with Wikidata as a means of leveraging that and organizing the collection.--Pharos (talk) 20:57, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't think anything listed on that page is concerned by this deletion discussion of unreferenced items without any sitelinks, even though outcomes like this don't really reassure. For a project that worked fine with Wikidata, have a look at m:Wikimedia CEE Spring 2017.
--- Jura 03:57, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

There are many roads up a mountain, and while the on Meta CEE Spring 2017 editathon is impressive, a lot of projects work off the Wikipedia:Meetup space, and using Listeria tables to do this is just as effective and helpful as the example you provide. I think the big question is what you require to be changed in order for this initiative -- as well as others -- to continue to use the catalog property. There needs to be a solution that will work. The understanding was the use of catalog was not a negatively impactful usage, it provided the solution to collocating tasks, and allows for the running of SPARQL queries. What is the solution beyond the catalog property? I guess it would be helpful to know what exactly is so objectionable here, so that can be addressed. But deleting this catalog is NOT the answer currently, as it would be very destructive to existing structure that are working really hard to integrate Wikidata into their workflows. I agree many of the people objecting to this usage don't seem to understand the usage here. And most importantly, while BLT is diligently working through Wikidata items to make them as complete as possible, it is a process that is going to take time. If you want to help, you could do research and add Wikidata information to each of the items that isn't complete yet. There's no restriction on that at all. That is what the eventual goal is, to have full and complete metadata on Wikidata so the entries on Wikipedia are super easy to create. But it is going to take time. I wonder if that is okay, if you know that's the goal, if you can give the initiative a break and let them -- and you -- fill in the Wikidata. Unless the goal here is to be obstructive and not encourage engagement with Wikidata across projects. Please explain. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 04:29, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't really know. Currently, there are some 600 items at Wikidata without any sitelinks, references or identifiers. Wikidata was set out as a secondary database not to host such worklists. You could create a stub at Wikipedia for each and fill them in later.
--- Jura 05:00, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
When it comes to requirements I would like every item to list enough information for a Wikidata user to decide whether when they want to create an item for a person with the same name, it's the same person or a different person. This could be achieved by adding a reference link to an article that mentions the person in question. It would also be great if the description would contain information like "US football player" or "New York artist" that won't take much time to be added but that helps a lot with disambiguation.

Without any information in Wikidata that allows for disambiguation between different people that share the same name, people besides the person who create the item can't effectively contribute to it. I would recommend to give the BLP people till the beginning of February to add enough information for people to be disambiguated and afterwards delete all items that only contain P31/P21/Catalogue and that have no references.

Take Ira Smith (Q6066249) and Ira Smith (Q28910245). How can I know from the outside whether the same person is meant or a different one? ChristianKl ([[User talk:|✉]]) 13:49, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@ChristianKl: this has nothing to do with the Black Lunch Table and the trust that we need to give for others to make Wikidata work for them. The same can be said with the many people that are included in Wikidata because of science.. How do we know that they are properly disambiguated? We don't but science is "important" and with BLT we are talking "black art". Thanks, GerardM (talk) 06:37, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

If I have an item about a scientist that only stores the fact that they are human and their gender I would also delete it. In reality most of the items we have about scientists do have external ID's that disambigutate the scientist. Interlinking with papers they author is also a way to disambiguate.

Additionally are you arguing that I should know that Ira Smith (Q6066249) and Ira Smith (Q28910245) aren't the same person because Ira Smith (Q6066249) isn't an artist but a footballer and the Black Lunch Table doesn't care for sport? If all the items in the list would truly be black artists, why doesn't the item descrition tell Wikidata readers that the item is about a black artist? ChristianKl (✉) 12:26, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

I just want to pipe in here Jura, ChristianKl & ValterVB et al... I understand that you believe that the items that were created for Black Lunch Table catalog purposes need more information in order to remain in Wikidata, i.e. references and more statements? We would like to try to complete them to your satisfaction. We are a small project and have been slowly expanding these entries. I would like to have a few months to do so as there are currently 1023 people we are trying to complete and really only two of us working on it in the time we are privileged enough to have to work on Wikidata. Currently it is taking us about a week to complete roughly 50 items (I'd like to know exactly how many statements you find satisfactory to complete an entry as this would help us move faster... exactly what do you need for an item to be worthy?), thus we would like to ask for you to suspend your judgement and deletion until June, giving us time to complete your request. We are an active project and invested in diversifying quality Wiki editors and subjects, but we are a small project. We would also like to invite you all to join us and help us complete these items you find lacking, as much of their information is easily available online and we can all help crowdsource a solution and grow Wikidata with worthy entries that are missing instead of deleting them. Thanks for your help!--Heathart (talk) 23:42, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

The core thing that we need is the ability to disambiguate different people. We want to have one item per person in Wikidata and when there are multiple items for the same person we want to be able to merge the two items. I would wish for information that's backed up with references that's enough to tell in an example like Ira Smith (Q6066249) and Ira Smith (Q28910245) whether the two are the same person. ChristianKl (✉) 00:27, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm okay giving time till June.

@Sjoerddebruin, ValterVB, MisterSynergy, Jura1, BrillLyle, Pharos: Are you also okay with ending this discussion for now and reviewing the matter in June? ChristianKl (✉) 00:27, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Personally I'm not agree, these items are 9 months old and there are more item that query don't extract. Is more useful a Google sheet. But if other users agree then I do not object and I do not follow these items anymore --ValterVB (talk) 12:24, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree with a point made by Gerard: we should treat these as other items. However, I think that means any unreferenced ones should be deleted. ChristianKl solutions might work, at least if it implies that references or identifiers are added. However, from the explanation given, it appears that this isn't possible for many of the 600 items.
--- Jura 13:14, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

It's not possible for external people to add the information, but for the creators of the BLT it obviously is. Given that Heathart offered to take responsibility to do that till June, I think that's a working solution. ChristianKl (✉) 17:49, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

@Fishantena, ChristianKl: and all, Ok, we will work on completing the entries with references and statements by June. Thanks.--Heathart (talk) 17:46, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Given the above compromize mark this as {{Not done}} for now. ChristianKl (✉) 17:47, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- Isn't that your proposal your are closing? June seems just far away. A list of 600 names can easily be stored elsewhere and from a WD point of view it's not needed that items are "completed", but have at least a basic reference.
  --- Jura 18:29, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

I am not happy at all with this "compromise" imho this is exactly how you keep diversity out of Wikidata. The arguments for quality are flimsy particularly when you consider how bad the quality is in other areas that seem to be good. In a published paper it was stated that constraints work against the diversity of Wikidata. We are doing ourself a disservice by being this brutal. Also the notion that it is "easy" to store data elsewhere is a horrible notion. It means that the queries that are used at this time no longer work. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 15:05, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

{{not done}} because the query at the beginning of this section does not return any items. --Pasleim (talk) 12:07, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but RfD is not about the query, if you think that the query is the most important part of this RfD maybe I did not say it clear enough: I asked: "Are these items notable because they are in "Black Lunch Table" or "Black Lunch Table" isn't a sufficient condition to make notable these item and item like these (see the query result) must be deleted?" I used the query at the beginning because was more easy the query instead of {{subst:Rfd group | | | | | | reason = }} --ValterVB (talk) 14:23, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

So let's imagine there is consensus that Black Lunch table isn't a sufficient condition to make an item notable. Which items would you delete? My impression was so far that you would delete all items returned by the query above. Since this query doesn't return any items, no items will be deleted. So the whole discussion here is pointless because independent of the outcome, no action will be taken. --Pasleim (talk) 22:34, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

As usual, all the pages that not fall under Wikidata:Notability. To be more precise, check the item without consider catalog (P972) = Black Lunch Table (Q28781198): it's notable? If answer is yes keep it, if answer is no delete it. Instead if we are all agree that items with catalog (P972) = Black Lunch Table (Q28781198) are notable, we can simply add in Wikidata:Notability/Inclusion criteria that item with catalog (P972) = Black Lunch Table (Q28781198) are notable. For me is the same, but if we keep them I prefere a different kind of property, probably something like participant (P710) or a specific property connected to this kind of event/project. --ValterVB (talk) 09:16, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Quite frankly, ValterVB you are proving your own point here. I am not sure where it became okay for you to be the sole arbiter of what is notable or not. You recently deleted a Wikidata item on a Brooklyn-based female rapper and underground hip hop artist who also happens to be LGBT. How on earth can YOU be the one to say this person is not notable?!? If I am not doing a good enough job establishing her notability then that is my problem to resolve. But I find it unacceptable that you can put this aggressive stance on an initiative that is trying to fix the extremely biased coverage of gender and diversity on Wikidata. You are missing the point, illustrating the issue quite clearly yourself in showing bias. If you don't understand this that's your problem but you are being obstructive and unhelpful in the extremis here. Please educate yourself. And yes, I am mad. This discussion and your actions are creating problems in trying to improve the community. It is NOT okay to force editors who are doing work in good faith to constantly justify and re-do their work because you don't get this. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 19:44, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

See https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:U3o2j70bn3v7yu1y&topic_showPostId=u4yjzk7ynvpvcufw&fromnotif=1#flow-post-u4yjzk7ynvpvcufw -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 19:46, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

The link reported by BrillLyle show the content ot the item (link for admins). The item was created on 17 ago 2017, and never update, it was like hundred of other promotional item delete by admins. I don't understand this personal attacks versus me. Lately I started to suggest to add this kind of exception in Wikidata:Notability/Inclusion criteria, but none answered for now. About " How on earth can YOU be the one to say this person is not notable?!?" simply: item don't report nothing to check who is this persone and what has done. If you create these elements with some reference that show that the person is notable we keep the item without proble, but if you create item like that, it is an item like hundreds or thousand of other items created only for promotionale scope and deleted daily. --ValterVB (talk) 20:37, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Also quite frankly, Erika, it is not a good idea to contribute here while being mad. So calm down, please.

First of all, we never judge about the notability of a person (or an entity in general); we judge about the item. If an items is deleted “because it does not meet the notability criteria”, then it means exactly that: the item was in a bad condition, not the entity described by the item. It would be extremely helpful if you don’t get this wrong here. (I acknowledge that this is confused often here; partly because of language shortfalls of non-native English speakers, partly because of imprecise wording, and also partly because of a lack of awareness.)

Unfortunately we have myriads of problematic content at Wikidata—I could easily give you lists of hundreds of thousands of items in such a poor condition (no serious identifiers, no sitelinks, no references except P143, no backlinks; basically “fully unreferenced content, not connected to the knowledge tree”, which is an extremely low threshold). This is highly problematic, as there is a lot of wrong information, serious BLP violations, fake items, libel, promotional content/spam, contributions by long-term vandals, accidentally created abandoned duplicates, and so on available at Wikidata; most of the problematic content was imported from Wikipedias (and has already been deleted there), a smaller fraction was explicitly created for Wikidata. This content shows up in queries (and Google searches), so it is not “invisible” just because there are no apparent users such as Wikipedias.

These days, only three admins engage significantly in deletions in fact (ValterVB, me, and HakanIST made >80% of all deletions in the past half year). I have no idea about the workflow of the other two, but from my point of view I can tell you that deleting items is not at all fun, but instead extremely tedious and time consuming. I can sit here for hours, look at highly problematic content and evaluate notability of the items. This is a rather schematic, yet manually conducted (thus inefficient) process, focussing on the condition of the item rather than on the entity itself. There is unfortunately no viable approach how these cases can be discussed in advance of the deletion: we talk about lots of hundreds of items each day (maybe even more than a thousand)—and I am not sure whether we keep up with the emergence of even more problematic cases this way.

So, two conclusions: First, if an item is being deleted and you are not happy about it, kindly ask for undeletion and make sure the item fulfills the notability criteria soon after. That effectively means these days that it should either carry an external reference to a serious source on at least one claim, or an external identifier (which does not point to user-generated content such as social networks). Second, this also outlines the problems with the P972-misuse discussed in this section. Formally, many items of the WikiProjects appear not-notable, so they are permanently in danger of being deleted. I am in general very open for the goals of all your projects, and I even like the idea to use Wikidata to start covering the entities—but I explicitly expect these projects to play by the book, just as everybody else does as well. Otherwise the concept of notability in its entirety would be seriously undermined, which in turn would create lots of problems for this project. —MisterSynergy (talk) 21:04, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I guess I could do without the lecture on how to add Wikidata items and how to establish notability. Literally EVERYTHING I do is about establishing notability. I know how to do that and do it regularly. I am also unique as I am predominantly an En Wikipedia editor who has fully embraced Wikidata. I am also working to integrate Wikidata into outreach efforts, which is the issue that I am having with this anti-that approach that ValterVB is embracing so fully. He is, whether consciously or unconsciously, attacking a great effective initiative in its effort to fully integrate Wikidata in its Wikipedia initiative. An initiative that should be encouraged on Wikidata as it improves the diversity on Wikidata. I am super tired of having the same argument here. That's why I am getting annoyed. ValterVB doesn't want to listen or adjust his approach. And you are now supporting that by throwing WIKI:Rulez and lecturing me. That is not helpful. That does not push us towards a better approach or resolution to these actions and the negative impact they are having on an initiative and on editors who are actually adding content to Wikidata -- versus deleting content. I thought this was just an En Wiki virus, but apparently Wikidata is not immune. I've got to say it really sucks. I don't want to have to spend my time on Wikidata defending actually adding good content to Wikidata. I am improving Wikidata here, and would not do anything to hurt the project at all. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 20:12, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

And now this is all a moot issue, as User:Multichill has taken it upon himself to DELETE all of the Black Lunch Table tags. https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Multichill&offset=&limit=500&target=Multichill He destroyed all the hard work. All of the connective outreach between Wikidata and Wikipedia. I am beside myself. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 20:35, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

UPDATE: It looks like the massive edits made by User:Multichill to delete the catalog property metadata has been reverted (I think). That said, I am pretty shaken up by the amount of hostility he and other editors have expressed about this outreach work, mischaracterizing it as original research. It's not that at all. So if yet another discussion needs to occur about this catalog property usage, please notify folks who are involved in the projects and let us know what other solutions might be available. But really, my faith in the community has been really shook by this wholesale action. I would like to think that editors are by and large constructive, but this experience leads me to be both wary of doing work on Wikidata and leads me to think that there are editors who are really hostile to using Wikidata in functional ways for outreach. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 07:39, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Now that's just *very* strange. I had just been looking last night at web info about the very person whose BLT tag was most recently deleted (Alicia Le'Von Boone), and had found evidence of that person's status as a curator at the Brooklyn Museum. I went looking because I find this initiative (and the resistance it's facing) interesting. Unfortunately, I can't seem to add the reference I found to the WikiData page by clicking reference, then adding the property "stated in" and adding the weblink to the museum's current page about Mme Boone. (I get a fun No match was found error. I even added the access date (retrieved property), but it didn't like that link at all. Now, I'm not sure if Alicia Le'Von Boone is more notable than say a regional manager of a paint plant just because she works in culture... still I agree that the initiative looks very interesting. Newbie question: is WP:GNG policy on Wikidata? I'm very surprised that the compromise solution proposed above hasn't been respected.SashiRolls (talk) 21:35, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Helped a bit with the weblink, see the item. Different reference models are described at Help:Sources, and you can find the notability policy at Wikidata:Notability. —MisterSynergy (talk) 21:43, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm still trying to grasp what the conflict here is about. @BrillLyle:, is your intention that the worklist definition of catalog(ue) amounts to the noun: "Now usually distinguished from a mere list or enumeration, by systematic or methodical arrangement, alphabetical or other order, and often by the addition of brief particulars, descriptive, or aiding identification, indicative of locality, position, date, price, or the like" (per OED), or are you using it as a verb: "trans. To make a catalogue or list of; to enumerate in catalogue form" (ibid)? If the issue is simply that BLT needs to preserve the list of items to work upon, there must be many other ways to do so without conflict. At WP, it would simply be a matter of doing it outside the mainspace. @Multichill: I'm rather startled that you think it's acceptable to announce this intention at Property_talk:P972 and execute it barely 24 hours later, particularly at a time when many people are on holiday. It simply does not seem well considered. Perhaps it's normal on wikidata, but to a wikipedian it is a shocker. LeadSongDog (talk) 22:51, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

The idea of catalog, which was actually suggested with consensus to GerardM as a solution when proposing a different property didn't work, is similar to a card catalog in the world of library science and metadata. It is a tag that can be used to collocate under one property (catalog) the association of the collection (or Wikipedia and Wikidata project in this case) to one entity so SPARQL queries can be run to create automated task lists which are pulled from Wikidata into Listeria tables. The catalog property makes it possible to query by location and if the editathon event is a gendergap focused one, by gender, as the Black Lunch Table holds events across North America with plans in 2018 to expand to Europe and/or Africa possibly. See Black Lunch Table event archive. All of this work is being done in a fully transparent manner, with multiple discussions on Wikidata. I mean, see discussion above, where the project was given a six month period to work on underpopulated items. This project, by the way, is minimally staffed and not fully funded by WMF (and only with rapid grants for minimal incidentals for events). So the idea is that it is already in the Wikipedia:Meetup/Black Lunch Table space, but it is driven by Wikidata as a way to incorporate -- and indeed encourage -- integration and connections between Wikidata and Wikipedia (and vice versa). Actually there was no conflict until now. This has been working really well, and has become a model for other initiatives that are wanting to create task lists that are query-able, as a model for what I am calling Wikidata-in-a-Box for editathons. Again, it's a super constructive, functional thing. But it hinges on the query. Without a tag no query can be run. If there is an alternate solution, that would be helpful, but this was already resolved and consensus was established that "catalog" would be a solution. Please let us know if you have further questions. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 07:29, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Can we have details about the funding of the Wikidata part?
--- Jura 08:53, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Although I am aware that you did not like my previous comment, which explicitly was not meant to be a “lecture”, I post another one. As I have outlined above, the approach which was taken here creates serious strain for the Wikidata project that several editors find unacceptable. It is also obvious that the Wikidata community has not yet agreed how to solve this case, so the comments made and actions taken appear somewhat incoherent sometimes. BLT is (one of) the first project(s) to use Wikidata like this, so it is now the project who has to deal with the difficult pioneering role to set things up.

To get things sorted, I summarize the issues of the taken approach (again):

On notability: BLT more or less explicitly requests to establish notability by itself. As of now, BLT appears to be a WikiProject in English Wikipedia, so this approach is pretty much at odds with the general notion in Wikimedia projects that notability is generated by external (i.e. non-Wikimedia community) agents, and that notability has to be indicated via use of references to external sources. While I personally trust the editors of BLT that their items (maybe with some exceptions) are in fact notable due to the availability of external sources, I nevertheless formally expect to have these references in the items—this is what we expect from all other editors and projects as well, and this request has been formulated several times in this thread.
The reason for this is threefold: First, while BLT seems to be a project on solid grounds, others with less credibility might follow and the taken approach could tear down all notability barriers that currently protect quality and maintainability of Wikidata. Second, notability needs to be to a large extent evaluable automatically, so we cannot accept exceptions like “consider claims Px:Qy to be always notable”. It just does not scale. Third, all items should be editable by all editors, so it is crucial that one always can easily identify which entity the item is about. If you don’t add external references (or Wikipedia sitelinks), this is pretty much impossible based on sparse generic information such as names and very basic claims.
On tagging: in the main namespace (i.e. items), we do not add “banners” such as enwiki does on article talk pages, or categories that explicitly relate items to specific WikiProjects until now. There are a few exceptions like the recently created P4570 (P4570) which is for structural items, but BLT now requests to do this on a much larger scale. This also comes with problems: who is eligible to modify the items and the membership to this catalog, and who can verify this? Items do not belong to editors or projects, so anyone can do this—but the approach taken appears to build walls around the items tagged with the WikiProject item. Nevertheless, such an approach might be the only viable solution here, since there is apparently no other way to capture all items in scope of this project with queries. However, I suggest to propose a new property such as “managed by WikiProject” with item datatype to do this; we would also need to set up new policies how this property would impact notability, and which other implications came with such a claim.
More technically: the way how the catalog property is used by BLT is technically incorrect, which was mentioned several times and very early as well. Catalogs are typically qualifiers to catalog code (P528), or used in exhibition items, but not standalone on items about humans. Editors who spend a lot of time to fix wrong property use are not happy if we allow permanent exceptions.

—MisterSynergy (talk) 08:57, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

@MisterSynergy:

What strain exactly does the Black Lunch Table present to the Wikidata community? I find this baffling, as the project is only trying to be constructive, and is only working to implement Wikidata as part of its efforts. BLT and Gerard and I are contributing a ton of free digital labor here. I don't see that being rewarded or recognized. It is great work that I am proud of.
There was consensus, but suddenly there seems to not be consensus. This is problematic in the extremis as Gerard and I worked to find a solution, were told the catalog property was an approved solution, and then suddenly has become an issue.
Everything the project is doing is following to a letter the idea of notability. The goal is that the Wikidata scaffolding for the resulting Wikipedia pages has the ability to meet Wikipedia notability requirements as well. It is the overarching goal, in everything BLT is doing, to establish notability. So lecturing about BLT trying to meet this requirement seems very circular and unproductive. That's what they are doing.
Do people outside the visual artists of the African diaspora community need to be able to understand notability that is being curated from these communities in an effort to improve diversity and gender gap on the projects? I would posit that standard notability is the goal. The curation happens all the time in outreach. If it comes from within a community of experts and/or people with this knowledge-base, what gives Wikidatans the right to curate this as well. That is the power and importance of the Black Lunch Table project. They are trying to do this for the projects. To meet basic notability. They don't need Wikidatans to double-check the work. It is arrogant to think that this process needs to be intruded upon when BLT is very clear about notability, and does that as their project mandate.
The biggest problem here has been there has been disparate conversations in multiple places within the Wikidata project, so it has been very difficult as a stakeholder to follow and respond to questions. This is a problem with both Wikidata and Wikipedia.
I am not going to respond to Pigs' comments below as he is trying to bring his discussion re: notability into this property issue, and it is not making resolution easier. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 05:28, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Neither your presence nor your field of work create strain here, of course. We like both and recognize your work. The items itself create rather little strain which is definitely repairable (complement references, and figure out a P972 alternative for an automated migration of the project tag claims). For items yet to be created, please seriously consider adding references during the initial setup directly after item creation—this would help a lot to reduce the strain on our side.

The major problem is all about the approach which was taken, particularly how the current situation with unsourced items threatens the concept of notability (which is a powerful measure to protect quality of Wikidata), and how a couple of hundred items reported in this section stand for quite a while now in the way of effective handling of actually problematic content (which means deletion in most cases). If we permitted BLT to do take this approach now, it would become increasingly difficult or even impossible not to permit others doing the same in future, and consequently to maintain Wikidata’s quality. I do not expect all subsequent projects to be as good-faithed as BLT; I even expect that some are not going to be good-faithed at all, but this is unfortunately not always clear at first sight.

Wrt the controversial tagging with P972: if nobody else does, I will propose a new property this weekend. It will *not* establish Wikidata notability (i.e. serious external references would be required regardless of its presence), and it will *not* imply any editorial priviledges for the project it references to. It would just be a handle to perform simple queries for item management inside the project. This idea has some support as I also read on the wikidata-l mailing list, but I am not sure whether it will ultimately be a successful proposal. —MisterSynergy (talk) 21:16, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

"a ton of free digital labor here" We're all putting in a lot of digital labour; please see en:Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#Begging for mercy. And please explain explicitly how these items meet our notability policy (and don't be surprised that they are deleted if you can not or will not). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:35, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

We are not Wikipedia and the linked page isn't even Wikipedia policy or a guideline. I think "I need more time to work on it" is a fine argument if it's sincere. We don't need to import the hostile culture of Wikipedia deletionism here. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 15:10, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Wow. Three straw men on one post. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:58, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

"You recently deleted a Wikidata item on a Brooklyn-based female rapper and underground hip hop artist who also happens to be LGBT."

For the avoidance of doubt; none of the following confer notability:

being Brooklyn-based
being female (nor being male)
being a rapper
being an underground hip-hop artist (indeed, being "underground" is most likely contrary to being notable, in a given sphere)
being LGBT (nor being heterosexual/ cis-gendered)

Our notability criteria are:

one valid sitelink to a page on Wikipedia, Wikivoyage, etc.
a clearly identifiable conceptual or material entity... in the sense that it can be described using serious and publicly available references.
fulfills some structural need

So how did this item meet our notability criteria? Under which criterion? Based on what evidence? And how was that evidence shown in the item? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:04, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Erika has replied to this post in the section above saying "I am not going to respond to Pigs' comments below as he is trying to bring his discussion re: notability into this property issue, and it is not making resolution easier. " Aside from the fact that my name is not "Pigs", it seems clear from that, that she either can not or will not demonstrate the notability of these items. This is a core mater for Wikidata - we only have items that demonstrably meet our notability policy. Accordingly, I suggest that we delete all those with no external ID, structural use (e.g as the authors of notable works on which we have items), or sitelink. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:53, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

There appears to be some off-wiki canvassing; see https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikidata/2018-January/011663.html. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:44, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Related discussion

See Wikidata:Property proposal/Wikidata focus list for a suggested new property, to indicate a maintenance management or development initiative like Black Lunch Table (Q28781198) that has a particular interest in an item, to replace current usage of catalog (P972) for such purposes. Jheald (talk) 14:22, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Participants in BLT

Maybe already asked before, but exist some list that demonstre that artist xxx is or was part of BLT? Because also if to be part of BLT is accepted for notability, is necessary find some reference that shows the connection with BLT. --ValterVB (talk) 21:01, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

I think we need to do more thorough cleanup of these items. Last time I checked, there were some 600 items with any reference, identifier or sitelink. Apparently references can't be found or couldn't be found and rather than creating stubs on Wikipedia, participants just fill talk pages here and deny that references would even be needed.
--- Jura 10:51, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I only see 67 items today using a query which is very reasonable IMO. If I’m not wrong, the number was at around 200+ a couple of days ago, so I do not see any reason to increase pressure in this question these days. —MisterSynergy (talk) 11:15, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  - It does seem to have reduced, but depending on how one measures, there still seem to be some 200 items (from 600 in December, 50% of all BLT items). Given that Gerard seems to work on the assumption that 6% of statements in Wikidata are errors and some proponents of BLT work under the assumption that references don't need to be findable, I think we should move these out of Wikidata. Items can easily be created on article creation (are we regularly do that anyways).
    --- Jura 07:45, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
    - +1 --ValterVB (talk) 08:44, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
      - Moving what out of Wikidata? The 67 items, or the 200, 600 or all BLT items? --Pasleim (talk) 10:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
        All item not notable for Wikidata guideline but useful for BLT. --ValterVB (talk) 14:13, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
        Well, okay. What does not meet our notability criteria? Above, MisterSynergy provided a query with items not meeting our notability criteria. Jura1 responded that it depends on how one measures there are some 200 items not meeting the criteria. So which items are now considered to be deleted? --Pasleim (talk) 18:14, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
        No sitelink, no backlink, no reference that show who is the person in the item. --ValterVB (talk) 18:59, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
        
        if useful to BLT then notable per "3. It fulfills some structural need" i find the biting of projects trying to use WD to build content unhelpful. Slowking4 (talk) 18:49, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @BrillLyle, Heathart: If you can add any sort of online link to information about these artists on their items, be them social media links, online database identifiers, or even personal websites, it will be quite helpful and will strengthen to some extent any arguments you have as to their notability. Us Wikidatans uninvolved with BLT going URL hunting by ourselves could very easily turn up information about the wrong people; for example, Edward Cruz (Q22349293) could refer to any artist—how do we know it's not this person? A similar argument holds for all the other artists. You, being most qualified to determine for certain who these artists are, should at least help us resolve ambiguity as to who they are even if you don't put every single facet of information about them in their items yet, as the insertion of said links provides at least a starting point for further expansion beyond just knowing certain characteristics that could apply to many more people. Mahir256 (talk) 07:50, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Another batch of this type of titem is expected to arrive: Grant and discussion, I have not seen discussions on Wikidata and the problem of notability that I asked at the beginning of the discussion isn't resolved. --ValterVB (talk) 09:47, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

@ValterVB: Sigh. I think it's clear from the discussion above that Heather from the Black Lunch Table was given a 6 month period to resolve any issues about notability due to Wikidata items needing more information. The very kind editor Pasleim has also addressed items that don't have enough items which should improve the concern you raised. Beyond this what more can be done? What would you like to see happen, for BLT and other outreach initiatives to go away and not use Wikidata as a semantic backbone of their work to establish notability? I am very exhausted by your continued fixation here. I am sorry that it seems that you don't feel that your concerns about notability have not been addressed adequately here, but at this point it seems like this might be part of a bigger issue of concern you have about Wikidata notability than about this specific outreach initiative. I am also very confused by many of the comments here that seem so against outreach and improving both Wikidata and Wikipedia content. That is very concerning. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 06:15, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

So you ask a special rule that for this type of item: "is necessary wait 6 moths before take any kind of action" Then why when I have proposed to add in Wikidata:Notability/Inclusion criteria this type of item, nobody accepted? It is a simple and clear rule and avoid a lot of discussion on these items. I'm not against these types of items, I'm against item that I can't check what/who is the subject of the item. --ValterVB (talk) 09:46, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

I think it is clear that no consensus was reached that BLT items are notable per se. But I also think that none of the current existing BLT items should be deleted because they all meet at least one of the notability criteria regardless of their affiliation with BLT [1]. --Pasleim (talk) 09:59, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

@Pasleim: Just to clarify: so if an item have only catalog (P972) = Black Lunch Table (Q28781198)} without sitelink, without reference without backlink (loop of not notable item is like no backlink) is an item not notable that we can delete without problem? --ValterVB (talk) 14:09, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Even if an item is not notable, one has different options. I suggest to take a more sensible approach and inform the project about the issue, rather than just deleting such items. Assuming we get this catalog (P972)-replacement property, we would be in a position where these kind of item sets can be managed much easier. I have decided to exempt items with the new property from my deletion routine once it is there (just as described at URL (P973) and described by source (P1343)), although it would not generate notability. At the same time, I'd set up a list to monitor its use, particularly how many non-notable items each of those projects manages. --MisterSynergy (talk) 06:42, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

So you propone to add all this type of items in this page and ping the user that created item? For me is OK no problem, need a decision for what to do for bots, or I must notify the project, but wich project? I repeat again if community think that this item are notable I haven't problem to keep this item, but I want a clear rule that we can keep this item. The simple way is add in Wikidata:Notability/Inclusion criteria Item with catalog (P972) = Black Lunch Table (Q28781198) (or another specific property) Why we can't do this? --ValterVB (talk) 09:46, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Pinging the creator and main contributor of an item before deletion should always be done, at least if the editors are regular contributors. There is also a pending bot request for this. About the clear rules for notability: our notability criteria are on purpose weakly formulated, because notability is not only black and white. Or if it were so, administrators were no longer needed because a bot could take over the whole deletion business. It's the job of an administrator to decide on an item by item basis if notability is established. Personally, I tend to delete item if they are referenced with fake webpages but tend to keep items if they have many informative but unsourced statements. If there are doubts, it's always possible to get feedback by the community by starting a discussion on this page here. Preferably, this should be done on an item by item basis and not in the style of "BLT yes or no?". --Pasleim (talk) 11:17, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

I can do it , but in past not all was happy about this (I done it one time), because when I delete items I dont delete 1 or 10 item but I delete hundred or thousand of item and I risk to full talk and recent changes. So your workflow is: search item to delete, ping user that have created, or the owner of the bot wait an answer and delete item after the answer? You say "It's the job of an administrator to decide on an item..." exactly but if after an admin delete items and other users not aren't agree I start a discussion, in this case this discussion, and in this specific case the question is very clear and not interpretable: "Are these items notable because they are in "Black Lunch Table" or "Black Lunch Table" isn't a sufficient condition to make notable these item and item like these (see the query result) must be deleted?" You say "Or if it were so, administrators were no longer needed because a bot could take over the whole deletion business" my opinion is "it's partially correct" the dimension of the project is too big for our resources, and it's necessary to have BOT that delete some kind of item because the rate from creation of not notable item vs deletion of this item is greater than one and the result is that Wikidata fills up of not notable item Probably not in this case but it isn't easy check if don't exist reference. --ValterVB (talk) 11:43, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

You asked a very clear question but the question is not answerable with yes or no. Like in most projects, there are also in BLT items with better and lower quality and items about more and less famous people. A general judgment is not possible. To move forward, I ask you to fill in a few deletion requests for specific items. --Pasleim (talk) 11:18, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Except for the query to the beginning of this discussione, I have exclude this type of item (MINUS { ?item wdt:P972 wd:Q28781198 }) from all my lists based on query to search not notable item. If are all agree I can exclude this criterium and when I find this type of item I can propose for deletion here. --ValterVB (talk) 19:45, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

The idea of a bot making these deletions is not welcome.
I also think at root of this issue is a misunderstanding and unwillingness to support outreach to improve both Wikidata and Wikipedia. I am fundamentally dismayed at this, as while this is all framed as being an effort to protect Wikidata and Wikipedia, what it actually does is impact negatively on making the project more diverse and representative. So I would urge that the editors against this outreach work examine and listen to this, and possibly adjust their perspective.
I think it is also clear that although agreements have been made and a context to the issues and efforts has been freely and transparently given, the editors involved in this discussion are pretty much going to do what they want. It will hurt Wikidata for sure. And will make any meaningful integration of Wikidata and Wikipedia from the GLAM sector impossible. So that's on you all.
And to Pigs' comments above, having an active discussion on or off the platform does not constitute "canvassing." It is called outreach and discussion. Things you seem incapable of doing.
-- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 17:59, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- Your continued ad hominem abuse is beyond tiresome. You should case that at once. A definition of canvassing may be found at en:Wikipedia:Canvassing. Writing such a highly-partisan email, whose final paragraph begins "I am asking for support here", is unequivocally within that definition. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:04, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

No BOT delete item , we use SPARQL to search item that not fall autamtically in Wikidata:Notability , after the list is generted every item is manually checked (at least in my case). --ValterVB (talk) 19:09, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Ready to be closed?

Meanwhile the BLT project has moved to the new on focus list of Wikimedia project (P5008) property (not using catalog (P972) and longer), and all of their items seem to be in a condition that notability is not questionable any longer. I think that this discussion is due to be closed, without any further administrative action. If someone has doubt about an individual item’s notability, I suggest to file a separate request for that particular item only. Any thoughts? —MisterSynergy (talk) 05:00, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

So, if I understand well, we don't use this property for these kind of item, but we use P5008 . In P5008 is clearly written "This property does not add notability to items and items should not be created with this property if not otherwise notable for Wikidata". In this case for me is OK to close the discussion because it's the answer to my question at the beginning of the discussion :) --ValterVB (talk) 11:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

This seems good enough for me. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 11:50, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Although I participated in this discussion, I boldly add Not deleted for the archive bot. The discussion is stale for a while now, and there are no items with clear notability issues left. —MisterSynergy (talk) 12:08, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q5560841

Q5560841: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Hoax article on enwiki. See en:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gilbert Carter High School. --Bamyers99 (talk) 16:03, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Sjoerddebruin (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 17:20, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q22092452

$wgAllowImageMoving (Q22092452): whether to allow file renaming: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

I don't think this page should be on wikidata Laboramus (talk) 20:15, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

On hold This item is linked from 1 other. --DeltaBot (talk) 20:20, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

@Laboramus: you mean as any other MediaWiki manual page or just this one ?
--- Jura 05:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

@Tgr, Legoktm: Thoughts? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:15, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't make claim about all other MediaWiki manual pages, maybe some (like Extension pages) are important enough, but IMHO certainly not every page for every variable. Laboramus (talk) 22:50, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226: I don't see much point in having a deletion discussion about this page on its own. More clarity on whether MediaWiki-related entities are welcome in Wikidata would certainly be great. See Wikidata_talk:MediaWiki.org#Item_types for specifics of what those entities are / could be; T155024 explains the use case. --Tgr (talk) 18:18, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Keep per Tgr. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:59, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Not done @Laboramus: if you still think this page should be deleted, please start a discussion on WD:PC or Wikidata talk:Notability about the notability of all 960 instances of MediaWiki configuration setting (Q21481290). Deleting 1 out of 960 similar items doesn't seem useful. --Pasleim (talk) 18:57, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q50376487

María Concepción Contel Barea (Q50376487): no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Empty Edslov (talk) 23:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Not done the item meets #2 of WD:N. No sitelinks it not a deletion reason. --Pasleim (talk) 19:11, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53697001

Q53697001: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Empty item, no links or sitelinks. -- irn (talk) 01:38, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 19:10, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53694432

Q53694432: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Not notable, no links or sitelinks. -- irn (talk) 01:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 19:10, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53679388

Q53679388: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Empty David (talk) 16:29, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 19:10, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53715766

Q53715766: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Empty David (talk) 16:30, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 19:10, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q19707127

Chiroptera (Q19707127): order of placental mammals: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Only language link is a redirect Andrei Stroe (talk) 09:13, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Done Redirect created by Pasleim, you can do it yourself next time. --DeltaBot (talk) 19:20, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q10696643

Q10696643: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Disambiguation page without sitelinks. Fiwiki article has been changed from disambiguation page to a content page and its sitelink was moved to a proper item. --Shinnin (talk) 10:57, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 19:20, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53646982

Q53646982: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Empty David (talk) 13:47, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 19:20, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q49254183

Q49254183: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Non-notable item. ··· 🌸 Rachmat04 · ☕ 15:22, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 19:20, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53678074

Q53678074: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Empty Edslov (talk) 23:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 19:20, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q17124018

cart (Q17124018): simple vehicle designed for transport, mostly uniaxial: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Merged with Q234668 Erik Wannee (talk) 07:08, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

On hold This item is linked from 9 others. --DeltaBot (talk) 07:10, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Done Redirect created by Pasleim, you can do it yourself next time. --DeltaBot (talk) 19:20, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q5211873

Q5211873: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Appears not to be notable per our policy and its content is not verifiable. please also look at the English Wikipedia discussion Kostas20142 (talk) 18:12, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted by Pasleim (talk • contribs • logs) --DeltaBot (talk) 19:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Q53657396

Q53657396: no description: (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

Created in error Jon Harald Søby (talk) 21:14, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

On hold This item is linked from 2 others. --DeltaBot (talk) 21:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

@Jon Harald Søby: if you created it in error, can you fix the statements on Gustaf Cruus (Q5613803) and Kristina Cruus af Edeby (Q53035335)? --Pasleim (talk) 19:13, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

@Pasleim:

Done I fixed one but forgot there were more. Fixed now. Jon Harald Søby (talk) 19:43, 18 May 2018 (UTC)