Wikidata:Property proposal/identifiant inventaire Hauts-de-France

Hauts-de-France Inventory identifierEdit

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Authority control

DescriptionGertrude identifier for a cultural property in the Hauts-de-France region
Representsmonument (lato sensu) in Hauts-de-France (Q18677767)
Data typeExternal identifier
Template parameternone
Allowed valuesI[AM]\d{8}
Allowed unitsNA
Example 1Noyon Cathedral (Q932828)IA00049500
Example 2Q48749217IA80010395
Example 3Église Sainte-Anne (Amiens) (Q3584902)IA80000143
Number of IDs in source65091
Expected completenessalways incomplete (Q21873886)
Formatter URLhttps://inventaire.hautsdefrance.fr/recherche/globale?texte=$1
CountryFrance (Q142) (item-requires-statement constraint (Q21503247) = heritage designation (P1435))
See alsoGertrude identifier (P1529), Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Regional Inventory identifier (P5517), Mérimée ID (P380), Palissy ID (P481)
Distinct-values constraintyes
Wikidata projectQ92275729, WikiProject Historic Sites (Q15214435)

MotivationEdit

VIGNERON
Mathieudu68
Ayack
Benoît Prieur
Ash Crow
Tubezlob
PAC2
Thierry Caro
Pymouss
Alphos
Nomen ad hoc
GAllegre
Jean-Frédéric
Manu1400
Thibdx
Marianne Casamance
NTranchant
Nattes à chat
Pierre André
Bouzinac
Albertvillanovadelmoral
Jsamwrites
Baidax
LearnKnowGive1
Mathieu Kappler
Daieuxetdailleurs
Archives nationales DJI
  Notified participants of WikiProject France Fralambert (talk) (Canada and United States)
Alicia Fagerving (WMSE) (talk) Yarl ✉️️  Spinster 💬 10:54, 6 March 2017 (UTC) Beat Estermann (talk) 09:49, 19 March 2017 (UTC) PKM (talk) Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) (talk) 05:57, 14 May 2017 (UTC) Acka47 (talk) 13:38, 29 June 2017 (UTC) --Carlojoseph14 (talk) 15:13, 30 June 2017 (UTC) Ainali (talk) 09:25, 17 August 2017 (UTC) VIGNERON (talk) Marsupium (talk) 14:36, 19 June 2018 (UTC) Runner1928 (talk) 15:46, 30 July 2018 (UTC) --Alexmar983 (talk) 20:48, 3 August 2018 (UTC) -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 10:04, 20 August 2018 (UTC) --Titodutta (talk) 13:01, 20 August 2018 (UTC) -- Satpal Dandiwal (talk) 02:06, 22 August 2018 (UTC) --Satdeep Gill (talk) 04:36, 22 August 2018 (UTC) --Pmlineditor (talk) 13:23, 22 August 2018 (UTC) --Rajeeb Dutta (talk) 15:17, 23 August 2018 (UTC) --Ananth subray (talk) 03:38, 24 August 2018 (UTC) --Sumanth699 (talk) 15:54, 25 August 2018 (UTC) --Ranjithsiji (talk) 08:19, 27 August 2018 (UTC) --MNavya (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2018 (UTC) Mauricio V. Genta (talk) 23:43, 1 September 2018 (UTC) Blademasterx (talk) 07:29, 3 October 2018 (UTC) Buccalon (talk) 20:35, 19 November 2018 (UTC) --Planemad (talk) 09:19, 15 December 2018 (UTC) Nizil Shah (talk) 05:23, 14 February 2019 (UTC) Ivanhercaz (Talk) 10:18, 8 June 2019 (UTC) Simon Cobb (User:Sic19 ; talk page) 16:43, 9 July 2019 (UTC) Mallikarjunasj (talk) 12:03, 16 August 2019 (UTC) --DarwIn (talk) 16:19, 25 August 2019 (UTC) --Atudu (talk) 15:59, 5 November 2019 (UTC) Arch2all (talk) 08:56, 21 January 2020 (UTC) John Samuel (talk) 21:50, 22 March 2020 (UTC) Akuckartz (talk) 11:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC) Baidax (talk) 22:34, 16 September 2020 (UTC) --AmarilisMGC (talk) 22:19, 30 September 2020 (UTC) --Epìdosis 18:19, 3 November 2020 (UTC) Pauljmackay (talk) 16:07, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
  Notified participants of WikiProject Built heritage

Could be very useful for bien recensé dans l'inventaire général du patrimoine culturel (Q16739336) in Hauts-de-France (Q18677767) ; this database overlap but is more precise than Base Mérimée (Q809830) and Palissy database (Q2886424).

Note: this is part of a serie of property proposal (one for each French region, except Gertrude identifier (P1529) and Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Regional Inventory identifier (P5517) who already exists).

Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 15:27, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

DiscussionEdit

  •   Support Pymouss (talk) 17:04, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
  •   Oppose we already have a property for the identifier. --- Jura 17:26, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
    • @Jura1: I checked before but didn't find it, what property are you talking about? Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 19:05, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
  •   Support. Ayack (talk) 18:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
  •   Strong supportBaidax 💬 19:53, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
  •   Comment See the identifier for the sample Q3584902 already added with Mérimée ID (P380).
    Additional formatters can be added with formatter URL (P1630) to Mérimée ID (P380).
    Also, isn't this the also the same as Gertrude identifier (P1529)? formatter URL (P1630) can be added there too.
    You probably noticed that on an international level, we created ISO country codes just once and add P1630 for each additional user. What is the French word for "formatter URL"?
    Even if we created them, would we get new properties every time there is some reorganisation of the French public administration and its regions? The underlying object are not in a single location.
    Another problem is that multiple proposals are made for the same identifier (8 ? or more). This makes discussions more complex than they need to be. Even the "co-proposer" [1] seems to loose track of the proposals and what they "strongly" vote for. --- Jura 13:30, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
    @Jura1: in the specific case sample it's indeed the same identifier (as I said "this database overlap [...]") but most of the time it's not the same, see [2] (313 results) while Mérimée has 113 results and Palissy 414 results (in this case, the inventaire has less identifier, in other cases, the inventaire has more). So no, you absolutely cannot use "P1630 for each additional user." For change in French administration, obviously it depends on the change but most probably we can just change the property label and formatter URL (as the identifier is perennial and - most of the time - doesn't rely on the plateform, this is what we did back in 2015 for Gertrude identifier (P1529)). Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
     
    Hi Jura1, do you know what Q3153865 is? A few months ago I was confused myself and didn't understand the management with all the other labels. This inventory in particular is managed at a regional scale and not national. The Base Mérimée (Q809830) only includes certain items (and is probably copying from what is done at the regional scale). The files on the regional sites are much more complete, but as VIGNERON indicates, there are a lot of missing items ; this pushes us to create these properties, which are also authority controls. For example, for Île-de-France, all records after 2012 do not appear on the Mérimée database or on www2.culture.gouv.fr. If everything was already on the Base Mérimée, we would have been more hesitant; at least when they will all be integrated we could discuss this but it's absolutely not the case now and I doubt it will be for years to come. Therefore, these bases overlap but are not the same! If a horse and a donkey both have one tail, two eyes, two ears, four legs, and they are fertile with each other, that still does not mean that they are the same animal. Many of us raise the problem and understand it, it even becomes insulting not to try to understand it and to take everyone for people without a reasonable thinking. As for the remark about my mistake, it is quite irrelevant: I just voted once, then I completed all the proposals ; it happens, the argument is worth absolutely nothing. Bringing them together on a single page is only a small technical aspect and not a reasoning on the identifiers themselves. Sincerely — Baidax 💬 17:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
  •   Support Complementary to Mérimée ID (P380). I see the oposition of Jura1, but I don't understand it. I see the description of Église Sainte-Anne (Amiens) (Q3584902) [3] and it's far more complete that the one of Mérimée. --Fralambert (talk) 16:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
  •   Comment The above seems a bit vague. It seems that no effort is made to attempt to "identify" the identifiers being used and people just flood Wikidata with properties for websites that at some point someone might have found useful. The result is that we end up with countless "former scheme" for which we rarely have new properties or for which people don't make the effort to find the current identifiers. --- Jura 20:03, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
    @Jura1: These are not just any websites; if you still haven't understood that these sites are official see for example the legal notices here. — Baidax 💬 15:52, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
    @Jura1: in the end, we don't really care for this website, the regional inventaire is what really matters here. Websites may change - in fact, they already did - the inventaire will not (unless the law changes but it's pretty much the same since 1964). And this is the real and current identifier for the inventaire (which is indeed not used by the website URL but you can see on each page of the website that this is *explicitely indicated* as the identifier). BTW we did a lot of effort to attempt to "identify" the URL identifiers, several wikimedians send probably dozens of mails to both the regional and the national services in charge of the inventaire (but feel free to try again). Maybe we can remove the link and just make this property a string? Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 19:28, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  •   Strong support - an identifier in the regional "inventaire Hauts-de-France" is not a web identifier... it is linked to the object permanently ! there is no id more official (for protected objects in Hauts-de-France) than this identifier. if THIS is not an ID, then nothing is : it will not change if the site change... only the way to link to the page on the site will. --Hsarrazin (talk) 11:53, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
@VIGNERON, Pymouss, Jura1, Ayack, Baidax: @Fralambert, Hsarrazin:   Done Hauts-de-France Inventory identifier (P9168) Pamputt (talk) 09:20, 19 February 2021 (UTC)